Reliable Rachael and Reputation

janetfan ( who couldn't be ?)...It seems I've been , ( ahem ) inartful again.. when I complain about Rachael using jazz, it's really jazz of the sexy variety I mean , as opposed to jazz of the I-just-can't-sit-still-to-this-music variety. I'm thinking music from Chicago e.g. can't help but carry connotations from the storyline and the style of the choreography of the musical. At the same time there are countless dixieland pieces that don't necessarily bring anything with them but "Oh, you kid ! "

Please accept my rationalization..

janetfan said:

A while ago Collen suggested that Rachael and jazz were not a match made in heaven. I disagreed - with the point that Rachael can't ever hope to be a ballerina.

So what - there is more than one style.
I agree with layfan - that Rachael's interpretation and style in her exhibiton program was nice.

Too late for this season but maybe next season Rachael will try something neither classical or jazzy - but something more contemporary where she can skate to the music and let her natural expression shine through.

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That's a nice way of putting it and I have to admit that I was surprised by her exhibition program. I didn't realize or believe that Rachael could be capable of such natural expression, as you put it. So yeah, I think maybe she and her choreo/coach haven't found the perfect vehicle for her yet but also Rachael seems to have a new sort of maturity this year - I think just a natural part of growing up and maybe that is something new that that they have to work with.

I like her programs this year better than her LP last year and I don't blame Rachael and team for trying to build on last year's SP since it got such better reviews. But when I saw her exhibition I had the same thought: Well, why does she do that?

Mathman: I agree the COP rule changes on spirals are for the best and are already benefiting skaters like Rachael (well, at least to viewers like me, if not score-wise).

colleen o'neill said:

janetfan ( who couldn't be ?)...It seems I've been , ( ahem ) inartful again.. when I complain about Rachael using jazz, it's really jazz of the sexy variety I mean , as opposed to jazz of the I-just-can't-sit-still-to-this-music variety. I'm thinking music from Chicago e.g. can't help but carry connotations from the storyline and the style of the choreography of the musical. At the same time there are countless dixieland pieces that don't necessarily bring anything with them but "Oh, you kid ! "

Please accept my rationalization..

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A baffling post at best

Earlier today Joesitz wrote something about how most skaters are better off playing a role - I think he meant it is easier to pretend to be "Carmen" and fall down dead at the end of a program as opposed to actually interpreting the music.

This got me to go back and watch a few of Janet's programs - and surprise, surpise, Janet never played a charatcer but simply interpreted music like no one had done before and FEW have done since.

I also watched Karen Magnuson - and same thing - just great technical skating that flowed with the music. Karen was a favorite of mine and IMO could do many things today's skaters can't do (of coursre Janet and Karen were actually showing a FREESKATE which is TOTALLY different than what we see today.

Rachael's "Sing, Sing Sing" SP from last season seems to be the inspiration for both her SP and LP this season. IMO it is just so-so and love it or hate it her "swing style" skating can't touch Kanako for expression and energy.

I hardly think of that as jazz - but that is from the realization that "jazz music" is every bit as diversified as "classical music."

Obviously Louis Armstrong and the "Hot Five" have little in common with the "Jimmie Lunceford" big band or the "Dizzie Gillespie" quintet of the late forties or the "Clifford Brown" quartet of the mid 50's. Miles defies description ect, etc

I find Bach and Mozart not to be from the same school and how ridiculous is it to think that Debussy's music has anything to do with Beethoven's music.

Different eras - Jobim to me is classical latin music yet he had predecessors who foretold his coming.

Anyway - I like the idea of Rachael skating to a Beatles tune - or something modal, or even New Age. Mantovani strings are even a possibilty

Something contemporay - not too jazzy or Latin, nothing balletic and I am tired of the schmaltzy swing stuff.......IMO she is doing it for a lack of knowing what else to do.

Perhaps in a year or two Rachael will get closer to Joannie and be able to show grown up programs successfully - yes, I find rachael, although older than Kanako still showing very adolescent programs - more dependant on "pep" than real artistry.

I think Lori has done her no favors and Tom Z appears to be clueless about presenting Rachael as a serious Worlds podium contender.

I say let Rachael be Rachael, and skate to whatever she wants to skate to, because imho (& the paying audience at Skate America) she chose just fine. In fact more just than fine, that's why she received a standing ovation, as well as catcalls & whistles from the male audience. Hard to believe only from those that have never seen her skate live.

Rachael's Team is to be congratulated, and I applaud them for being able to distinguish constructive criticism from just plain criticism, and work on making Rachael even greater than what she is. A perfectionist's work is never done.

Skating is first & foremost a S-P-O-R-T, then art! If you want ballet, go to a ballet recital to watch all the tall young thin fey-like girls with the long necks/arms/legs point their toes & spin en pointe, or if you want to see a human being contort themselves into the most unusual positions (as if they were born without a backbone, lol), then go see Cirque du Soleil, I have & you won't be disappointed! But if you want to see an athlete jump into the air & land on a tiny thin piece of blade skinnier than your pinky, and skate from one end of the rink to the other whilst maintaining posture & skating in time to the music while spinning & dancing as well, then go see FIGURE SKATING! There's nothing like it, and that's why it alone is considered an athletic event, and has been part of the Olympic Games since the beginning, whereas ballet & the circus are *not*, and never will be imho, and that's because they are first & foremost performance art, not SPORT.

Back to Rach, I honestly have nothing else to say, because as God is my witness she more than exceeded whatever expectations I might have had beforehand. She blew them out of the water. I've always been a fan of hers since 2007 US Nationals, but even moreso since this past weekend's Skate America. I feel she will be the one to lead the American Ladies this quadrennial, she's not afraid to pick up that torch and forge ahead to a better future for American Ladies Figure Skating here in the United States. And I applaud her, and welcome further growth from her as the years past. Finally, an American woman has picked up from where Michelle Kwan left off, two silver & one gold at US Nationals, a Top 10 showing at her first Olympics, and two Top 10 showings at both Worlds she has gone to, and she's only 18 yrs. old. That shows consistency, resilience, mental toughness, and a fighting spirit. I've been waiting for the one, and she's it.

janetfan said:

Tell you what - I will send you a pm because my reply is almost as NASTY as your remarks about Sasha.:scowl:

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I know this is between you two, but since it's on a public forum, I couldn't help but say something.

I saw nothing NASTY or insulting from Doris. Heck, I'm a fan of Sasha's as well, and I didn't take offense. ***! I'm a fan of Doris's, and I don't like seeing her being attacked for no reason. Okay, I'll back off now, but I don't know where you get off, janetfan.

Sincerely,

Nadine W. (PM if you like also, I'm all ears)

Layfan said:

You know, I really like this exhibition performance of Rachael's. (Thanks for the link Janetfan )

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUP4sjFI4b0

She's heartfelt and elegant. Also, I love that costume of hers - (those are GREAT colors for Rachael and she should ditch the pink and fire engine red.)

I re-watched her Skate America LP just to confirm that I really did enjoy it and I did.

I've never thought Rachael's problem is musical interpretation or showing her emotions or that she's a boring skater who just jumps or that she doesn't have "it" ... She showed musicality from a very early age - as the links that Dorispulaski posted prove. I've watched those videos too and I was amazed at Rachael's polish at 12.

Rachael's problem is her lines. And it isn't just about flexibility. There is a reason that ballet dancers have to have long limbs and long necks and other attributes. As Mrs. P and others have pointed out, Rachael HAS taken ballet. Unfortunately, it isn't just about knowing how to do the movements. You have to look "right" doing them. Rachael has had back problems and her body apparently just didn't develop into a long-limbed, long-necked swan.

Oh, well. Luckily for her, figure skating is much more forgiving than ballet about that sort of thing. Rachael can jump like few other women skaters and she has musicality and determination. I think "team Rachael" has done a much better job this year of showing her off her strengths and minimizing her weaknesses. I think Janetfan may have a point that her reputation as a non-artistic skater may have held back her PCS at Skate America at least a little but hopefully Doris is right and that will change if she skates well in the final. (And gets another standing ovation )

Some of her spins still look awkward and that seems to be a weakness that is hard to mask under COP. Or is it? She has a fairly nice layback spin ... maybe some of the COP whizzes here can make suggestions about how Rachael can get points for spins and not force herself into bad positions...

Also, does anyone think Rachael seems faster this year or am I just imagining it? I thought she seemed like a much faster skater at SA and it made her look more commanding.

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I think Rachael needs some kind of signature move. It looks like she's trying with the Ina Bauer, but others do it better. What does she do that few others do? Maybe it's the 3 lutz-3 loop she's been practicing. She needs something with a bit of the wow factor. Michelle had it with her spirals, Sasha with her flexibility and perfect postions, Yu Na with her incredible jumps, even Alissa, with her spins. Lots of top skaters have weaknesses--even Yu Na, who had a weak spiral and very average spins. But all of the really top skaters also had something special. Rachael has consistency, but it is not enough.

jenaj said:

I think Rachael needs some kind of signature move. It looks like she's trying with the Ina Bauer, but others do it better. What does she do that few others do? Maybe it's the 3 lutz-3 loop she's been practicing. She needs something with a bit of the wow factor. Michelle had it with her spirals, Sasha with her flexibility and perfect postions, Yu Na with her incredible jumps, even Alissa, with her spins. Lots of top skaters have weaknesses--even Yu Na, who had a weak spiral and very average spins. But all of the really top skaters also had something special. Rachael has consistency, but it is not enough.

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It's true that Rachael has no obvious wow factor but very very few skaters do and you don't always need it to make a worlds podium. Joannie, Carolina, Laura, Fumie (back in her prime) ... those girls ... I wouldn't say they have wow factor but they have some very nice qualities and abilities that have been enough for world medals in the past.

colleen o'neill said:

Layfan..I think we posted at roughly the same time , and i was thinking you already said what I wanted to say,( re; positions )

I missed the SA exhibitions , I'll have to make a point of looking them up on YouTube.

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Colleen, here's Rachael's exhibition program:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUP4sjFI4b0

I'm still in shock about how much I truly like this program. It is the first from Rachael that I want to rewatch. It's stirring.

That's a beautfiul program-and I think she did it better at SA than at NHK. And the only jump in it is a double axel.

BTW, she does have a candidate for a wow move in it. Her spread eagle at the beginning is really great!

And the donut spin she does in it is a lot more pleasant to look at than the strange catchfoot she's still doing in her programs.

More spread eagles Rachael-but that would require less jazzy music, like this Beatles song.

dorispulaski said:

That's a beautfiul program-and I think she did it better at SA than at NHK. And the only jump in it is a double axel.

BTW, she does have a candidate for a wow move in it. Her spread eagle at the beginning is really great!

And the donut spin she does in it is a lot more pleasant to look at than the strange catchfoot she's still doing in her programs.

More spread eagles Rachael-but that would require less jazzy music, like this Beatles song.

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I've wondered if the reason Rachael doesn't do the donut spin in competitions is because it hurts her back to over-practice it...

That could be. But then why does she do it in exhibitions? If it hurts, that's a heck of a commitment to giving a good performance for the crowd, but not for the medals. It may be that she can't get into another position comfortably from it to rack up COP points?

Layfan said:

It's true that Rachael has no obvious wow factor but very very few skaters do and you don't always need it to make a worlds podium. Joannie, Carolina, Laura, Fumie (back in her prime) ... those girls ... I wouldn't say they have wow factor but they have some very nice qualities and abilities that have been enough for world medals in the past.

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Joannie has bigger jumps, better non jump elements, skates with more power, and certainly has more style, refinement, and better choreography than Flatt. Carolina is eons faster, has far better basic skating skills, has far better non jump elements, and has the push of the European bloc behind her. Laura's World bronze might have been a fluke for all we know unless she improves, but her skating skills and polished skating are highly regarded and things Flatt does not approach, and she is the European judging community's new darling. Fumie? Well she was solid and consistent, and her jumps were alot bigger, spins stronger, footwork alot stronger, and basic skating and speed both alot better in her prime than Flatt today.

Flatt is not good enough to win a World medal unless the whole field skates very poorly and she does the performance of her life. That is unless she shows an unlikely improvement at this point in her career. Sorry to be so blunt but it is the truth.

Is anyone able to see Rachael's interview on the video page of IceNetwork? It doesn't seem to want to play. :disapp:

That's a lovely exhibition program! Thanks to everyone for pointing it out. Taking a look at it makes me realize that for all the mention of body type, Rachael has a very nice figure. Her neck is a bit short, so she can't do the swanlike thing, but she has lovely fluid arms and a lightness of movement from one position to the next. As for music style, I'm reminded of the wonderful video of her at age 14 (Doris, wasn't it you who linked us to that?), where she skated splendidly to chamber music. As many of you have pointed out, sometimes skating to music doesn't have to mean building a character but rather finding the character of the music.

I can't say that Rachael strikes me as an extraordinary skater, but then there are very few of those. It happens that two of the most extraordinary skaters ever--YuNa and Mao--are skating right now. They are skaters for the ages, as Michelle certainly is, and possibly Sasha. Rachael did beat YuNa once, but in the overall recollection of this era, people aren't going to remember the skaters who beat YuNa or Mao in one competition or another (except as statistical curiosities); they're going to remember YuNa and Mao. But that doesn't mean that all other skaters should stay home! Everyone should have the chance to follow her dream. Because, ya know, you never know!

Think about it: the Beatles are musical immortals. I'm not sure anyone will ever top them. But I bet most of us have an "our song" that isn't a Beatles song. There's room for all sorts of excellence in the world.

EDIT: By the way, I don't have the vocabulary to say this, so could some of you movement experts like Doris and Layfan look at Rachael's program and see if you can interpret me...one thing that struck me that Rachael has is a sense of balance. She seems unusually able to shift her weight and move one part of her when you're expecting her to go in another direction. I think that's a quality in her skating that could be emphasized to make her unique. I know what I'm seeing, but I don't know how to say it. Am I making sense?

janetfan said:

I think Lori has done her no favors and Tom Z appears to be clueless about presenting Rachael as a serious Worlds podium contender.

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I have felt this way for the last couple of years about Team Flatt not coming forth with better vehicles. I am not a fan of Tom Z's judgment of the music selections and guidance on interpretation--it seems to be a problem for many of his skaters not just Rachael.

That said, I am always in awe of Rachael's ability to win a long program.

That could be. But then why does she do it in exhibitions? If it hurts, that's a heck of a commitment to giving a good performance for the crowd, but not for the medals. It may be that she can't get into another position comfortably from it to rack up COP points?

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I'm thinking she probably doesn't have to practice it nearly as often if it's only in a show program. And I'll have to watch her exhibition again but perhaps, as you say, she uses the donut in a way where she doesn't have to transition into another pose that might hurt. (Ouch. Makes my back hurt just to discuss this.)

Joannie has bigger jumps, better non jump elements, skates with more power, and certainly has more style, refinement, and better choreography than Flatt. Carolina is eons faster, has far better basic skating skills, has far better non jump elements, and has the push of the European bloc behind her. Laura's World bronze might have been a fluke for all we know unless she improves, but her skating skills and polished skating are highly regarded and things Flatt does not approach, and she is the European judging community's new darling. Fumie? Well she was solid and consistent, and her jumps were alot bigger, spins stronger, footwork alot stronger, and basic skating and speed both alot better in her prime than Flatt today.

Flatt is not good enough to win a World medal unless the whole field skates very poorly and she does the performance of her life. That is unless she shows an unlikely improvement at this point in her career. Sorry to be so blunt but it is the truth.

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I agree with your description of the other skaters. Whether or not they are better than Flatt is kind of irrevelant to the point I was trying to make, so I didn't go into that.

This is pretty much the point I was trying to make:

I can't say that Rachael strikes me as an extraordinary skater, but then there are very few of those. It happens that two of the most extraordinary skaters ever--YuNa and Mao--are skating right now. They are skaters for the ages, as Michelle certainly is, and possibly Sasha. Rachael did beat YuNa once, but in the overall recollection of this era, people aren't going to remember the skaters who beat YuNa or Mao in one competition or another (except as statistical curiosities); they're going to remember YuNa and Mao. But that doesn't mean that all other skaters should stay home! Everyone should have the chance to follow her dream. Because, ya know, you never know!

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Thanks, Olympia.

I'm not sure I've noticed Rachael's sense of balance and whether her ability to shift her weight or quickly change direction is particularly good. Last year, I thought Rachael was a bit labored in that department. But this year, less so! Maybe she's improved and that's why it's noticable? (Also, I'm definitely not a movement expert but thanks for that )

What I noticed in her EX was that Rachael has spiffing spread eagles, especially for a lady. Quite often ladies have butt eagles (butt sticking out) instead of spread eagles (think Kat Witt in Carmen, which was the most brilliant use of a butt eagle in an "if you can't fix it, feature it" mode for a butt eagle. She uses it when Carmen is dying).

If your butt is sticking out, it is very difficult, I would think to do the outside spread eagle at all, let alone shift to the inside spread eagle without a step between. She gets a really good lean on both the inside and outside spread eagle, so they proceed on a nice curve, too. Plus to go that far down the rink with them suggests she has pretty good speed in the move. So, to me, that's a wow move for Rachael.

Brian Boitano, and for that matter, Jonathan Cassar have made a substantial number of points over the years for great spread eagles.

A good spread eagle also make a nice wow entrance into a 2A, if she could do it well.

Also her layback is very nice in the old school Nikodinov sense, in this ex program.

I don't think anyone is claiming Rachael is better than Mao or Yu-Na, or even close. But I would like to see her be the very best Rachael she can be before she retires.

Clips from Rachael at Liberty were taken by my husband, so I'm sure I've posted them at one time or another. (That's when I found out that Rachael is a far more compelling skater live than on TV.)

Rachael doesn't have the perfect posture that a lady skater should have and many ladies possessed. She wasn't a born-to-be-a-skater type. All she has were the determination and amazing consistency (and I admire her of that). She was not robbed in PCS. It was about as high as she could possibly get. Like Evan Lysacek, she's already maximized her potential and did incredably well. Can't ask more than that.

Rachael has a remarkable consistency. That's her WOW factor. How many girls landed 7 triples LP time after time in the past few years?

Skaters who reach the top--and not just once--all have a wow factor somewhere in their skating. A few others do, as well--Sasha and Alissa come to mind. Rachael is back with the rest. She places higher because of her consistency, but that is not going to carry her to the rank of a top skater, like Yu Na, Mao or Michelle. I think Rachael needs a new coach and needs to improve the power and height in her jumps and the flow and speed of her overall skating. More power in her jumps along with her consistency and ability to do the 3-3 would certainly set her apart. Practicing figures comes to mind as something that might help her with her edging and flow--but I will leave it to the experts to say if that would help.