Men - Short Program | Page 5 | Golden Skate

Men - Short Program

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Which portions of the PCS according to the rules do you feel were hurt by the fall and should have lowered his score?

Don't expect any answer that makes sense within the rules, some people will complain that Chan is overscored even if he lands a Quint. :disapp:

In the Edge, there is a dedicated thread on this right now and there is even an ISU judge who posted his take to explain how P/E is being scored. Nothing more can be done if certain people refuse to be educated, then they will just have to remain seriously misinformed and it's nobody else's fault.
 

mishieru07

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 23, 2009
Before people start screaming wuzrobbing, please RELAX. Breathe and take a chill pill! No point making yourself upset!

And now, I'd like to refer everyone to the rulebook: http://gofigureskating.com/compete/scoring.html

There are rules and set criteria in FS. I don't always agree, but rules are rules. I can't argue against them. It took me a long time to stop judging what I saw based on overall impression, which is very 6.0, and actually realize that there are set rules and requirements for everything. Despite all the politiking, I'd like to think the judges are doing their job. No comments on the skates since I couldn't watch live.

Under 6.0, a fall was a killer. But back then, URs and take-off edges weren't as strictly called either, so loads of skaters "cheated".
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
And did any other men, top 3 or otherwise, come anywhere close in the quality of their Step Sequence, also a Required Element? What about the in-betweens? Did you notice many men opted to do a 3Lo instead of the more difficult 3F and Chan's 3F was very well executed, by far the best in the entire competition, as smooth as butter when he landed it. Spins wise, he is also the best of the bunch, hence higher GOE there albeit the advantage on the 3 spins are not overwhelming. Last time I checked, there are 7 elements in the SP and he bested all other men in 6 out of the 7, except the fall on the 3A, which he still fully rotated, which is the key. Now reasonable people can disagree and an argument can be made that his marks could have been slightly lower or that Abbott could have been given 1st place - it's not unreasonable, however what I take issue is your very liberal use of the word "ridiculous" without seemingly putting any real effort to understand or justify your, well, quite outrageous rant.

Both Verner and Abbott did a 3Lz as their single jump, which is more difficult than the 3F....just saying.

And do you mind if I politely ask what is so good about Chan's spins? I mean, in my opinion, he has decent positions and centering most of the time but I'm not sure what's so amazing about them. It's not like Abbott and Verner are hideous spinners either...
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
I realize there's no point in even trying to debate this with you because you are so pro-Chan that you can't even begin to have a non-biased discussion on the matter. Therefore, there's no point in even trying. Good day! :)

Running away so soon? Unlike you, I can actually justify my position in plain English without using emotional rants and I don't mind when people disagree with me. It bothers me however that certain people just bash skaters they don't like no matter what, justified or otherwise.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
And do you mind if I politely ask what is so good about Chan's spins? I mean, in my opinion, he has decent positions and centering most of the time but I'm not sure what's so amazing about them. It's not like Abbott and Verner are hideous spinners either...

Chan is the best spinner because wallylutz says so . . . haven't you seen the pattern developing? wallylutz is the all knowing one. :rofl:
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Running away so soon? Unlike you, I can actually justify my position in plain English without using emotional rants and I don't mind when people disagree with me. It bothers me however that certain people just bash skaters they don't like no matter what, justified or otherwise.

If you don't like my posts, you can always put me on ignore.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Chan's combo and 3rd jump were wonderful, but the fall on the 3A???

This is where I have a big problem with taking off only -1.00 for a fall. The fall deduction should be much more severe and particularly in the short program. And no way is Chan's PCS that much better than someone like an Abbott. Overscored, as usual. Chan will win this even if he falls 5 times in the free.

I have no idea if there's a worldwide pro-Chan conspiracy in judging, but I think I'm definitely seeing a herd mentality on the PCS side. Doesn't mean the herd (lemmings?) always get it right.

How funny that I saw a herd mentality on anti-Chan comments. You are right, the herd does not always get it right.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Both Verner and Abbott did a 3Lz as their single jump, which is more difficult than the 3F....just saying.

And do you mind if I politely ask what is so good about Chan's spins? I mean, in my opinion, he has decent positions and centering most of the time but I'm not sure what's so amazing about them. It's not like Abbott and Verner are hideous spinners either...

Neither of their 3Lz is as well executed as Chan's 3F. Chan's 3F, in this particular SP, was very, very well executed. GOE considered, it's either a wash or edge to Chan. Personally, I will go for the latter.

You are right, Chan's edge in the spins is relatively small, like I said earlier. But they tend to better executed than Abbott and much better than Verner, whose spins are not as pretty in the positions / lines he hit. So his spins has a tiny edge over Abbott mostly due to better execution overall, e.g. better speed and slightly better positions, but reasonably more than Verner, GOE considered. In any event, spins are not the major differentiators anyway. Since transitions impact every element in their GOE, Chan's complex choreography and superior in-between foot work will add to his GOE in every single element he does well, boosting each element by about one bullet point in the minds of the judges. Notice sometimes even when he falls, his GOE is not -3, that's why.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Wowww! A perfect 4T-3T in SP from Chan?! I can't help but admire this guy's guts!:thumbsup::bow:

All the skating skills educations and now definitely Chan's 4t-3t are about to win me over.;)
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I realize there's no point in even trying to debate this with you because you are so pro-Chan that you can't even begin to have a non-biased discussion on the matter. Therefore, there's no point in even trying. Good day! :)

You are so anti-Chan that you can't even engage in a non-baised discussion on the matter. Good Day to you, too!
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
This is where I have a big problem with taking off only -1.00 for a fall. The fall deduction should be much more severe and particularly in the short program.

Actually, it's more than -1.00. He already lost -3.00 on the GOE, and the -1.00 is an extra deduction, so the total impact is -4.00

And no way is Chan's PCS that much better than someone like an Abbott. Overscored, as usual.

uh...Chan's PCS is not even 2 points higher than Abbott, http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2010/SEG001.HTM

You really think 40.42 vs. 38.54 is a lot, in Men's skating where the total score among elites is usually 220~240 points in total?

Chan will win this even if he falls 5 times in the free.

Now, I don't think you really believe that's true.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
How funny that I saw a herd mentality on anti-Chan comments. You are right, the herd does not always get it right.

Can't speak for others, but my comments are not anti-Chan the skater. My comments are directed at the judging.

I find the pro-Chan crowd on this board almost scary--close to bot-dom.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
Can't speak for others, but my comments are not anti-Chan the skater. My comments are directed at the judging.

I find the pro-Chan crowd on this board almost scary--close to bot-dom.

I don't know what is pro-Chan crowd you are talking about here but I do know that there is so much Chan bashing here that even spilled over to Ice Dance threads and they have to be shut down by Mods.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
Can't speak for others, but my comments are not anti-Chan the skater. My comments are directed at the judging.

I find the pro-Chan crowd on this board almost scary--close to bot-dom.

I totally agree with you; it's not Chan's fault, it's the fault of the judging system and current rules in place. As for some of Chan's fans, it's not close to bot-dom; it is Kim level bot-dom IMO, and before I get lynched for making that comment, I happen to really like Yu-Na. No skater is without their flaws though.
 

bigsisjiejie

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 22, 2009
Actually, it's more than -1.00. He already lost -3.00 on the GOE, and the -1.00 is an extra deduction, so the total impact is -4.00

uh...Chan's PCS is not even 2 points higher than Abbott, http://www.isuresults.com/results/gprus2010/SEG001.HTM

You really think 40.42 vs. 38.54 is a lot, in Men's skating where the total score among elites is usually 220~240 points in total?

Now, I don't think you really believe that's true.


The penalty for falling is still not severe enough for my liking, and that would apply to any skater, not just Chan. Falling on any jump in the short program, should be a major sin in my book.

And yes, I think the PCS spread is a lot over Abbott and Verner. I'm looking at the component scores. If Chan got lots of 8.00+, Abbott especially should have gotten them too.
Don't downplay a 2-point spread. Competitions have been won or lost over less of a spread.
 

wallylutz

Medalist
Joined
Mar 23, 2010
GOE padding/cheating is definitely possible....I'm not saying that it has happened here, but it is possible. When it comes to GOEs, TES can just be as subjective as PCS.

I think you need to read a little more on how GOE is scored. Judges follow a bullet point system in awarding GOE, that's how they justify when put under review. GOE also has mandatory rules such as when certain errors have to result in negative GOE no matter what or a missed combo in the SP is an automatic -3 for example, completely non-negotiable. Any otherwise would be noted as an error on the part of the judge(s) and they could be reprimanded.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Excuse me, who is the "we" here? Only the Queen of England refers to hersels as we.

I was certainly not "alone", when I was wondering why Patrick got those marks, as you can see on this board, that is why I used "we".

While I appreciate your detailed explanations about the reasons he is getting the marks, I don't appreciate your arrogant tone.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Can't speak for others, but my comments are not anti-Chan the skater. My comments are directed at the judging.

I find the pro-Chan crowd on this board almost scary--close to bot-dom.

Just to make my position clear: I am pro-skaters, pro-judges, but anti-rules. Poor Oda was "robbed" of the Gold medal twice in this year's GP series, not by judges but by the stupid rules. Mr. Chan should not have won the gold at Skate Canada. I will be very happy when people channel their energy to the improvement of the rules (e.g., more severe penalty on falls) and actually make it happen as soon as possible. It is just so wrong that a 3 falls program could score so high, urgh!
 
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evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
I think you need to read a little more on how GOE is scored. Judges follow a bullet point system in awarding GOE, that's how they justify when put under review. GOE also has mandatory rules such as when certain errors have to result in negative GOE no matter what or a missed combo in the SP is an automatic -3 for example, completely non-negotiable. Any otherwise would be noted as an error on the part of the judge(s) and they could be reprimanded.

I have read the many of the PDFs provided by the ISU on how GOEs are scored, thank you very much, but I don't think it's outrageous at all to say that GOEs can be subjective. How else do you explain wide spreads in GOE--for example, Patrick's SlSt in his SP at the Skate Canada: 4 -3s, 4-1s and 1 -2.

Plus, isn't the bullet point system technically a guideline (as in, you don't need to necessarily fulfill 4 of the bullets to get a +2 on a jump, for instance), though many judges do follow it literally?
 
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