Grand Prix finals: “major championship” or “who cares?” | Golden Skate

Grand Prix finals: “major championship” or “who cares?”

Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Here’s what I think.

It takes time for a sporting event to develop the tradition, history and cache that characterizes a big deal in the sporting world. Organizing committees and international regulatory bodies cannot just declare an event to be important by fiat. There is no particular reason why the Masters is the most prestigious tournament in golf, and Wimbledon in tennis. They just are.

The Grand Prix is only 15 years old. It began as fund-raiser for the ISU in the 1995-96 season by matching up the winners of several invitational events around the world. I doubt if the Bofrost Cup (aka the Sparkassen Cup, the Nations Cup, and the Fijifilm Trophy) was any more prestigious than some of the independently produced cheesefests. (For one thing, the cheesefests offered bigger purses.)

I think it is significant that Japan is the country that pays the most attention to making the Grand Prix Final and placing well. Although Japan has been involved in skating for a long time, only recently has it risen to a place of dominance. To European counties, the Johnny-come-lately Grand Prix can’t hold a candle to the century-old European Championship.

I think the Grand Prix will live long and prosper \\//_ As it gets its feet on the ground, skaters of the future will be eager to carve their name on the trophy beneath those of the legendary giants that grandpop keeps going on and on about – Yu-na Kim, Mao Asada,…Jeremy Abbott…. :rock:
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
Good post and I also have thought the GP is taking on more importance and will continue to do so with the rise of the Asian skaters. I know they have FC - but the GP series and final seems at least to surpass that competition in importance, doesn't it? Probably because there it's a prolonged event. Correct me if I'm wrong but when Yuna and Mao faced off that the GP it was a fairly big deal in their countries, no?


Here's a Kyodo story I came across recently about Mao and it describes the GP final as "prestigious"

http://mdn.mainichi.jp/mdnnews/sports/news/20101129p2g00m0sp039000c.html
 

doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
I think it is significant that Japan is the country that pays the most attention to making the Grand Prix Final and placing well. Although Japan has been involved in skating for a long time, only recently has it risen to a place of dominance.

I think it may also be significant that NHK Trophy existed for over a decade before the Champion Series was created, only one Olympic cycle past the Sapporo games. I'd bet "their" GP event is a little bit more of a thing to them than Bofrost Cup or the other random GP events of days gone by. Trophee French Company, Skate Canada, Skate America all have a long history too, but for various reasons probably aren't quite as signifcant for skating fans in those countries. The way fans in a GP host country see "their" GP event probably has a lot to do with how they see the entire series. The whole thing does seem calculated to play a bit into nationalist fervor, the way invitations/assignments work.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
If there's one thing I've learned in school, it's that traditions are invented (Hobsbawm et al.)

With more time and more promotion, I'm sure the GPF will be fine.
 

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
GPF is of course more prestigious than any of the GP events. As we all know, skaters have to place well in two events to reach the Grand Prix Final. On the other hand the GP events are different, if a skater is lucky, in some event one can place well easier than in some other event, LOL. So much depends on with whom you are competing with in that particular GP event...

Although GPF might include most of the "best skaters", I don´t see it as a major event like Europeans, Worlds and Olympics. 4CC might become a major event like Europeans, if it would include best skaters more often and not just the lesser ones mostly. Maybe it should be held in some other time?
 
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sydneyphoenix

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 20, 2010
I would say that the icenetwork ranking point system for different competitions got the order of importance of major competitions right, though not necessarily the gap between those competitions: Olympics>Worlds>GPF>Euros=4CC. True, GPF and 4CC is very young compared to other competitions listed, but we should consider the nature of the competitions.

I believe I can be bold as to say that a few would challenge the view that the Olympics followed by the Worlds are in different leagues from GPF, Euros or 4CC. Now, Euros and 4CC (and North American Championships before 1970s) are in essence "regional" competitions in that they were designed to determine the best athlete coming from geographically defined, non-universal areas. As far as politically correct logic is concerned, being the best in Europe or being the best in other four continents in itself doesn't confer any valid claim to be the best in the World. This may not necessarily correlate well with reality in certain cases that being the best in one continent effectively implies being the best in the World (e.g. European Gymnastic Champions usually have excellent chance of frying bigger fishes at the Worlds or the Olympics). Even if this implication may be conceded at a certain point in time, the situation is transitionary and may have change completely in a decade's time. Thus, one should focus upon the constant feature of the Euros (for last 60 years anyway)-that it is a regional championships. The 4CC has legally the same status as the Euros, and rightly so, despite lacklustre standard from time to time.

GPF on the other hand is open to the competitors from around the World, seeking to find the Winner among the Winners (or place-getters) of various qualifying competitions. As such, unlike "regional" Euros or 4CC, it can be considered a global competition. While it won't (and in my opinion, shouldn't) ever replace the World's, in some ways it is a better assessment of athlete's abilities, especially regarding consistency. It is much more difficult to "fluke" one's way to GPF, as providing 6 sound performances is much more difficult to fluke than providing only two required to win the Worlds. The Grand Prix Series is designed to give the best chance of making into and winning the GPF to statistically the best competitors from the previous season. While the surprise non-inclusion or withdrawal can reduce the quality of the competition, the World is not systematically protected from it either.

Now, I am aware of the arguments revolving around the fact the GPF and/or 4CC is quite young compared to the Euros. However, while the long history of the Euros witnessed the performances of many great skaters, I believe it is wrong to give excess prestige to the competition in a certain time based on august past even if the European Champions would struggle to mount the podium in a "global" competition. While the pre-WW2 Euros, at least as far as the singles competitions were concerned, had significant correlations with the outcome of the Olympics and the Worlds (and indeed, allowed participation of non-European competitors despite the name, making it sort of a "minor" World title), same cannot be said of it now-Europe is no longer the undisputed centre of the (singles) figure skating. It may recover much of its glory in future. The point is that it is unwise in my opinion to afford inherent additional prestige based on past glory no matter what the standard of the competition might be at a certain point in time. Slightly modifying what evangeline has quoted from Hobsbawm, I contend that the tradition is only worth what one would make it worth.

As an aside, think of situation in boxing. Until 1960s, the WBA World title was deemed to be the only legitimate World Boxing Championships. Since then, rival sanctioning organisations have been formed, and while WBA is still one of the four major sanctioning bodies (there are several other "non-major" sanctioning bodies), it is no longer THE title. Past prestige doesn't guarantee the standard and prestige of the present.

I would like to end by referring to the opinions of two of the elite figure skaters regarding the status of GPF. Patrick Chan was quoted saying in an interview with Universal Sports only 3 days ago that in his opinion "the (Grand Prix) final is like a mini-World Championships" (http://www.universalsports.com/news/article/newsid=504591.html). Yu-Na Kim said in a TV appearance earlier in the year that she believed that the GPF is the third most important competition after the Olympics and the Worlds. I wouldn't speculate whether Chan and Kim being eligible for the 4CC rather than the Euros have anything to do with their opinions, but it is evident that they hold the GPF in high regard. Kim in particular named GPF ahead of the 4CC, which is legally of equal status to the Euros. One may draw a conclusion or two from those comments.
 
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seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I think in the past it used to be more glamour and the prize money was much higher, but still in one of the biggest comps!And a chance for many skaters to meet before worlds.
 

museksk8r

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 31, 2006
Country
United-States
IMO, the Grand Prix Final is only behind the Olympics and Worlds in terms of prestige. I think it holds more weight than a European or Four Continents championship because the champion is usually someone who has to maintain a certain level of consistency over 3 events with 2 phases in each event. The champion is not only having to face off against skaters from his/her own continent or nation, but from all around the world as well, which is why I place it as 3rd in level of prestige behind Olympics and Worlds. In a way, it's like a mid-season mini World championship, like figure skating's college mid-terms, if you will. ;)
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I'd agree. The GPF is one of the few really international events besides Worlds and the Olympics. 4CC is missing the fifth C, Europe, which for years meant that the top ice dancers and pairs weren't even eligible to compete. (Now with Chinese pairs and North American ice dancers, that's not as relevant.) As well, as you've all mentioned, this competition has a long lead-up with the national events.

The whole series is also a great road test not only for the skaters, but for viewers. The benefits to skaters of refining their programs in repeated competitions (three times during the season if they're lucky) are obvious. For the other side, I'm old enough to remember when the only skating competitions you could see on TV were the Nationals and Worlds most years, and you never got a sense of who was who. In the first Olympics I ever watched, I had no idea what the East German lady was like, and she ended up coming in third. With the GP series, we can all learn about skaters from countries such as Georgia and Korea who could be factors in the World Championships.

Mathman, I love your "live long and prosper" symbol! Right back at you. Wait....\\ //.
 

ivy

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Somewhere between for me. Should be more prestigious then it is, and may be gaining. I think the schedule isn't quite right. Maybe if it was the week after the last GP there be more a sense of drama. As I've said elsewhere - I'd really like 4CC to be more meaningful.

If I recall correctly, the whole GP - GPF was started to keep skaters from turning Pro as soon as they won a few medals. I wonder if the GP series should have slightly different requirements then Worlds, etc,- if it tested and rewarded slightly different skills. It would give it it's own identity and therefore it's own prestige.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I think the limited participants (only 6 or 6 pairs in each discipline) and the neglects of the impact of its results from some countries (such as the USA's way of selecting their country's world team) undermined GPF's significance.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
To me, GPF is very prestigeous. Its participation has to be earned through preliminary rounds, the participations in which has to be earned in turn. So it's a meet of the creme de la creme. equivalent to the Final Flight of a World Champeionship. As a fan, I like the condensed competitions as well, not having to sit through 20+ skaters to finally watch the contenders. However, since it's earlier in the season, its prestige is deferential to that of the World Championship. Its placements don't detate those in WC but help elite skaters better prepare for the end of season big showdown. Being elitist is of course always unfair to the underdogs, who don't get to practice as much.

I like it. It gives me more to watch and I get to follow the skaters' progress through the season. I imagine skaters like having more opportunities to compete and to prepare for the WC as well.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
I say who cares! I think most skaters feel that way as well. Ask any of them, in Europe especially if they would rather have a GPF gold or a European gold, they answer would always be a European championship.

The way the GP assignments are given out aren't equal, (esp in pairs this year) I don't think you should have to skate in two of them to make the GPF if your score is high enough to have to do only one. It should go by top 6 scores in the entire GP competition, not how many competitions you have been assigned.

FCC should be just as prestigious as Euros but the best people need to be sent there.
 

R.D.

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
It's up to the skater, IMHO.

But I think the problem with the Grand Prix in general is that it's no way connected to the later championship events, so the skaters may see it as a sort of "practice run" before the tone changes. If the ISU wants to increase the GPF's prestige, they need to connect it to Worlds/Euros/4CCs somehow. How about automatic qualification to worlds for the winners? Not saying it should be done, just suggesting.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I m not sure exactly the years but I m pretty sure in the first seasons of the last decade GPF was in January or even February after Euros. I think 2-3 GPF were like this for sure, I specifically remember the one in Russia was almost in March. I dont know if anyone else remembers it that way but it was way more exciting and a great competition before worlds.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It's up to the skater, IMHO.

But I think the problem with the Grand Prix in general is that it's no way connected to the later championship events, so the skaters may see it as a sort of "practice run" before the tone changes. If the ISU wants to increase the GPF's prestige, they need to connect it to Worlds/Euros/4CCs somehow. How about automatic qualification to worlds for the winners? Not saying it should be done, just suggesting.

I agree with you on this. I love skating so I love watching the GP series.
For now it helps set up Natls which leads to Worlds. In Europe they have a wonderful event with a great tradition.

I have no objection to the GP counting for more - but want ISU to make the move and reward the finalists or atleast the medalists with a ticket to Worlds. Or something along those lines.

On the other hand maybe it is fine the way it is now..........
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
The Grand Prix is only 15 years old. It began as fund-raiser for the ISU in the 1995-96 season by matching up the winners of several invitational events around the world. I doubt if the Bofrost Cup (aka the Sparkassen Cup, the Nations Cup, and the Fijifilm Trophy) was any more prestigious than some of the independently produced cheesefests. (For one thing, the cheesefests offered bigger purses.)

I think it depends on perspective. The individual invitational fall senior events had a decade or two of history before being combined into the Champions Series, later renamed Grand Prix, in the mid-1990s, so they did have some accumulated prestige.

I think it may also be significant that NHK Trophy existed for over a decade before the Champion Series was created, only one Olympic cycle past the Sapporo games. I'd bet "their" GP event is a little bit more of a thing to them than Bofrost Cup or the other random GP events of days gone by. Trophee French Company, Skate Canada, Skate America all have a long history too, but for various reasons probably aren't quite as signifcant for skating fans in those countries. The way fans in a GP host country see "their" GP event probably has a lot to do with how they see the entire series. The whole thing does seem calculated to play a bit into nationalist fervor, the way invitations/assignments work.

Skate Canada and NHK are the oldest GP events. Skate America next oldest.

I think Skate America always had more prestige in the US than the 1990s pro-ams and other invitational made-for-TV "cheesefests," even if the latter paid more and were desirable for that reason.

Tradition/history for one reason, international field for another, rigorous standard judging as opposed to experimental rules sometimes made up for each event for a third.

Getting selected for a USFSA-paid trip to compete in Europe was also prestigious for US skaters before the GP existed.

Nation's Cup and its sponsor-named successors in Gelsenkirchen and Trophee Lalique/Trophee de France/Trophee Eric Bompard both started in the mid-1980s. They may have had less prestige for German and French skaters and fans than the Japanese, Canadian, and American versions had in their countries because Germany and France also had other late-summer invitationals with longer histories.

The Coupe des Alpes was a mini-series going back to the late 1960s, consisting of a German event in Oberstdorf and a French event in St. Gervais. These were team events, with a trophy awarded for the country with the best combined results for both competitions.

The German event (Nebelhorn) still exists and is still prestigious within Germany. The French event morphed into a junior event and is not held every year as JGPs get assigned to different countries.

Nation's Cup, by the way, was originally also a team event.

The structure of the competition and scoring for each phase were same as normal, but then there was a combined scoring of results to determine which country's team earned the cup.

NHK was a little different from normal events in the 70s and 80s in that it did not include school figures.

Cup of Russia and Cup of China were invented after the start of the Champions Series/Grand Prix.

Cup of Russia could be considered the post-Soviet successor to the Prize of Moscow News competition, which was one of the older senior invitationals and pretty prestigious in its day.
There was just a gap of several years in the early-mid 90s between their respective existence, while both Russia and figure skating reorganized significantly.

There was also a British event in the 1980s that had several sponsors -- one was a brand of cheese, so I guess that made it a literal cheesefest? :)
In the 1980s it was comparable in prestige to other events that continue to the 21st century in or out of the Grand Prix, but it didn't survive into the modern skating era of prize money and no figures. :)

I don't think we can judge prestige for the skaters based on television coverage. Naturally US TV gives more coverage to events that take place in the US or where the best Americans are competing. Since each federation tends to invite their best skaters to their home event and sometimes to keep the rest of the field modest enough to help the home team's chances at medals, the American team tends to be stronger at the home games than at the away games. :)
Especially before the Grand Prix with its seeding rules.

If I recall correctly, the whole GP - GPF was started to keep skaters from turning Pro as soon as they won a few medals. I wonder if the GP series should have slightly different requirements then Worlds, etc,- if it tested and rewarded slightly different skills. It would give it it's own identity and therefore it's own prestige.

What would you want to see done differently?

They did try making the rules for the GP final different ca. 1999-2001, requiring two free programs (and no compulsory dances). The hope was that skaters would choreograph completely new programs to give audiences something different to watch. But very few of them did. Of those few, some ended up switching to the new program for the later part of the season or using the new GP program from one year as their long program for the following year.

But most of them just revived an old long program from the previous year or earlier.

There was also an elimination format where the top two going into the final round competed for gold vs. silver, third and fourth competed head to head for bronze, and fifth and sixth didn't get to skate the final round.

Those proved not to be very good ideas and were dropped, thankfully.
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
i am more of who cares.
why is because here lately under new systems, scores seemed more rigged than ever before.
The events have been there since what 1978, 1973 or something.
But previously only the skaters from their own country went to them. Few outside from the other countries went, even than majority of medalist was from
the country which hosted the Event. Why-logic, people of that country who hosted it wanted to see their own country skaters medal more than a competitive country skater.
in other words, skate america-people want to see american wins, medals over russian, japanese , german etc.
like most people in other countries would like to see russian skaters win /medal in their host events, japan in theirs, canada in theirs . It is only logical and natural .
that what happened even though some other skaters skated better, cleaner.
grand prix final is the culmative effort of that. does it help-it depends on which country you are in, do i think it is important --no. does it help probably yes, but important no.
i think nationals, worlds, olympics are more important, but like i stated it depends on which counts. How you grew up thinking about the Grand prix final and events
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I do care about the GP. It's the only complete international event before the Worlds, and it tells me the season has begun (forget those try-outs in B competitions). How are they doing since last March? Not time enough? The winners of these comps were ready. If competitors are not yet ready for competing, it's just, too bad. Better they try out the new costume somewhere else.

The eager crowds in Beijing for all events were as happy to be there as in last Worlds.
 
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
For one thing, I would never say "who cares" to a chance to see high-level skating! Even if I just get to view each skater's program on YouTube, it gives me the opportunity to see how things are going, to meet new skaters, and to see how the programs look. Another thing: often the commentators aren't the same ones who do Nationals or Worlds on TV, and they can give me insights here that I wouldn't otherwise get. For a few years when ESPN showed all the Grand Prix events, people like Paul Wylie and Susie Wynne made some very useful observations that allowed me to learn about important aspects of each skater's technique. This was especially true for pairs and ice dance, about which I'm less savvy than I should be by a long way.
 
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