Will the Zhangs ever win a World title?

The Zhangs about 5 years ago were seen as the future of pairs skating, a team that would win many World titles and probably the 2010 Olympics. Now it looks like their best days might be behind them altogether with still not truly reaching the pinnacle of the sport. They havent been competitive with the Germans (barring a major self destruction by the Germans) since fall 2007 atleast. They have been displaced by Pang & Tong in China for the first time in awhile, and Sui & Han are already making their mark as seniors and threatening to take over as the next Chinese #1. There are also a growing collection of top teams from Russia. And last year saw the Zhang's PCS plummet even for good skates.

Will the Zhangs ever win a World title.

pangtongfan said:

Will the Zhangs ever win a World title.

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I hope so.

Yes, so do I. Does anyone know how their injuries are healing? Will they be ready for Worlds/4CC's?

I don't think we will see them again, I think they have lost their drive :disapp:

We shall see.........

I'll say probably not, but it's not out of the question. Not many people thought Pang and Tong would win the Olympic silver either, or Evan Lysacek the Olympic gold for that matter.

For me, the Zhang's haven't made the ephemeral development into artists.

I don't think anyone can forget the emergence of Shen/Zhao into emotiing skaters. Pang and Tong seem to have acheived that growth - perhaps related to the growth of their off ice relationship.

So far IMHO, Zhang/Zhang have not taken that next step. The deeper connection is missing - and it doesn't have to be a romantic one, but there's something missing as compared to S/Z, P/T and other top pairs teams.

Of course, they could still win, but I th ink it would require some assistance/mistakes from other teams to get them onto the top of the podium.

not likely. their best days are behind them, the last few years they have struggled artistically and even their consistency isn't what it has to be. Now with an injury i can't see them topping Aliona and Robin AND Pang and Tong. Sui and Han are rapidly becoming a world contending team and so are the russian teams.

Zhangs are not competitive with the Germans,but I think they are totally competitive with Pang/Tong.

zizi said:

Zhangs are not competitive with the Germans

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Really? The Zhangs have beaten Savchenko & Szolkowy quite a few a times.

The Zhangs could beat the Germans but the Germans have to fall multiple times and the Zhangs go clean for that to happen probably. Kind of like what has to happen for Tomas Verner to beat Patrick Chan right now. The scoring potential of the two teams is far apart at this point, it was significant even in early 2008 and early 2009 when the Zhangs had the political backing as the #1 Chinese team which they dont have anymore so is alot more now. That is unless the Zhangs even while off the ice with injury have somehow improved a huge amount.

The last 3 year the two teams have met 7 times, and the Germans have come out on top 6 of 7. Here are the results:

07-08 Grand Prix final: Savchenko & Szolkowy defeat Zhang & Zhang for gold by 8 points. Comparable mistakes by both teams in long. In short hand down by Robin and clean skate by Zhangs (Germans still win short by about a point)

08 Worlds: Savchenko & Szolkowy defeat Zhang & Zhang for gold by about 5 points. The Germans with a huge fall on side by side triple salchows (which were downgraded I believe), a stumble out of side by side triple toes, out of sync spins, in the long program, and a stumble out of side by side triple toes in short. The Zhangs with a clean short, a hand down on side by side triple salchows and a singled side by side double axel. Some thought this was a controversial decision but it only shows how the judges feel about the two teams comparatively that the Germans won out comfortably with so many more glaring mistakes.

08-09 Grand Prix final: Zhangs defeat Savchenko & Szolkowy for silver by about 3 points.
Zhangs with one fall in long program as only mistake. The Germans with atleast 4 significant mistakes including 2 falls in long.

2009 Worlds: Savchenko & Szolkowy win gold by about 15 points. Clean in both programs except for a fall on footwork in long by Germans. Zhangs clean in short but a fall and another stumble in long. Short program gap about 4 points, long program about 11.

09-2010 Grand Prix final: Savchenko & Szolkowy finish 3rd, about 20 points above the Zhangs who finish 6th and last. In short program Zhangs go clean and finish 7 points back of Germans who have a hand down on the triple toes. In long program both teams make a couple major mistakes.

2010 Olympics: Savchenko & Szolkowy finish 3rd, 16 points above the Zhangs who finish 5th. Both do clean shorts and have one bad fall in long. The Germans also double a major triple in long.

2010 Worlds: Savchenko & Szolkowy double a triple jump in both programs and win silver, 9 points ahead of Zhangs who finish 5th despite being only top pair to skate clean in both programs.


The way the Germans are skating this season which is more consistently than ever probably it would be a miracle for any team to beat them, let alone the Zhangs who has been no threat to them for over 2 years atleast.

Yeah the Zhangs many times beat Aliona and Robin back in 2005-2006, as did alot of other teams. That really doesnt mean anything at this point. Aliona and Robin were a fairly new team at that point and couldnt even beat a team Fitze and Rex for the German entry spot into the 2004 Worlds.

I would like to see the Zhangs win a World title someday so hopefully they can come back strong for Worlds this year and come top 5 (I think that would be a good result for them this year missing most of the season with injury). Then hopefully in the off season be able to improve their artistry and make a real bid to be the Chinese #1 team again against Pang & Tong and Sui & Han. If Pang & Tong continue skating like they are this season and Sui & Han dont mature well enough or handle her inevitable growth spurt well, then they could atleast make a big to be the #1 Chinese pair again. Those are alot of what ifs though.

pangtongfan said:

The Zhangs could beat the Germans but the Germans have to fall multiple times and the Zhangs go clean for that to happen probably. Kind of like what has to happen for Tomas Verner to beat Patrick Chan right now. The scoring potential of the two teams is far apart at this point, it was significant even in early 2008 and early 2009 when the Zhangs had the political backing as the #1 Chinese team which they dont have anymore so is alot more now. That is unless the Zhangs even while off the ice with injury have somehow improved a huge amount.

The last 3 year the two teams have met 7 times, and the Germans have come out on top 6 of 7. Here are the results:

07-08 Grand Prix final: Savchenko & Szolkowy defeat Zhang & Zhang for gold by 8 points. Comparable mistakes by both teams in long. In short hand down by Robin and clean skate by Zhangs (Germans still win short by about a point)

08 Worlds: Savchenko & Szolkowy defeat Zhang & Zhang for gold by about 5 points. The Germans with a huge fall on side by side triple salchows (which were downgraded I believe), a stumble out of side by side triple toes, out of sync spins, in the long program, and a stumble out of side by side triple toes in short. The Zhangs with a clean short, a hand down on side by side triple salchows and a singled side by side double axel. Some thought this was a controversial decision but it only shows how the judges feel about the two teams comparatively that the Germans won out comfortably with so many more glaring mistakes.

08-09 Grand Prix final: Zhangs defeat Savchenko & Szolkowy for silver by about 3 points.
Zhangs with one fall in long program as only mistake. The Germans with atleast 4 significant mistakes including 2 falls in long.

2009 Worlds: Savchenko & Szolkowy win gold by about 15 points. Clean in both programs except for a fall on footwork in long by Germans. Zhangs clean in short but a fall and another stumble in long. Short program gap about 4 points, long program about 11.

09-2010 Grand Prix final: Savchenko & Szolkowy finish 3rd, about 20 points above the Zhangs who finish 6th and last. In short program Zhangs go clean and finish 7 points back of Germans who have a hand down on the triple toes. In long program both teams make a couple major mistakes.

2010 Olympics: Savchenko & Szolkowy finish 3rd, 16 points above the Zhangs who finish 5th. Both do clean shorts and have one bad fall in long. The Germans also double a major triple in long.

2010 Worlds: Savchenko & Szolkowy double a triple jump in both programs and win silver, 9 points ahead of Zhangs who finish 5th despite being only top pair to skate clean in both programs.


The way the Germans are skating this season which is more consistently than ever probably it would be a miracle for any team to beat them, let alone the Zhangs who has been no threat to them for over 2 years atleast.

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What about the results before 2007/2008? The Zhangs beat Savchenko & Szolkowy seven times from 2004 until 2007.

MikiAndoFan#1 said:

What about the results before 2007/2008? The Zhangs beat Savchenko & Szolkowy seven times from 2004 until 2007.

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We are discussing their chances against them right now right? What happened between the two pairs from 2004 to 2007 means nothing to their chances of beating the Germans now.

pangtongfan said:

We are discussing their chances against them right now right? What happened between the two pairs from 2004 to 2007 means nothing to their chances of beating the Germans now.

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But you think it's fair to compare results from 2007/2008?

MikiAndoFan#1 said:

But you think it's fair to compare results from 2007/2008?

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The more recent times have gotten the more the Germans have dominated the Zhangs as my breakdown of each competition shows. 2009 the gap is bigger than 2008, 2010 the gap is bigger than 2009 (despite the Germans not even skating well for them last season). And the Germans are skating more consistently than ever this season. The Zhangs have been injured all season so how they have possibly improved any while off the ice altogether until recently (apparently he is finally back on ice now). So it is baffling how you think the Zhangs could hope to challenge the Germans right now, which you were questioning someone else on. They could try and skate clean and hope for the Germans to fall 4 times I guess, but that is pretty much it for now. That is until they potentially improve more and get back politcal backing from their federation as the #1 or even #2 Chinese pair which wont happen this year which hopefully they will be able to do if they have a healthy off season but we will see.

You are right, going back to 2007/2008 is even silly. So with that said in events in just the last 2 years going back to only March 2009, Savchenko & Szolkowy have beaten the Zhangs easily by huge margins in all 4 they have met, and in only one have they been only 1 placement apart. Happy now?

pangtongfan said:

Happy now?

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No. I think that when the results of two teams are being compared, all the competitions should be included, even the ones that are not recent. Of course, this is just the way I think.

MikiAndoFan#1 said:

No. I think that when the results of two teams are being compared, all the competitions should be included, even the ones that are not recent. Of course, this is just the way I think.

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Of course that makes sense if you are evaluating the careers of the skaters and comparing them. However that is not what was being done. What is being done is evaluating the Zhangs CURRENT chances. And there is nothing that indicates, especialy having had barely time to train alone let alone make major improvements, that they are currently any threat to Savchenko & Szolkowy unless the Germans help them out with about 4 or 5 falls. How the two teams stacked up in 2005 and 2006 has no bearing on how they stack up today. Unfortunately as the competitions of the last few years show the Zhangs are not even close to the Germans of late in competition, and with his being injured any major improvements this season would be nearly impossible. Not to mention the Germans are hardly making any mistakes this year, so if you are a team who needs them to make alot of mistakes to have a chance you are out of luck at the moment.

If we are talking about careers btw I should mention the Zhangs have 10 grand prix event wins. An impressive stat as that is the most of any competing team today. Well that is if we exclude the grand prix final as Savchenko & Szolkowy have 9 regular grand prix event wins and 2 Grand Prix final victories.

pangtongfan said:

Of course that makes sense if you are evaluating the careers of the skaters and comparing them. However that is not what was being done. What is being done is evaluating the Zhangs CURRENT chances. And there is nothing that indicates, especialy having had barely time to train alone let alone make major improvements, that they are currently any threat to Savchenko & Szolkowy unless the Germans help them out with about 4 or 5 falls. How the two teams stacked up in 2005 and 2006 has no bearing on how they stack up today. Unfortunately as the competitions of the last few years show the Zhangs are not even close to the Germans of late in competition, and with his being injured any major improvements this season would be nearly impossible. Not to mention the Germans are hardly making any mistakes this year, so if you are a team who needs them to make alot of mistakes to have a chance you are out of luck at the moment.

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Ah, I see. Now I agree with you. I still hope they come back strong, but with Hao's injury I doubt that'll happen.

I think if they can:

1. Stay healthy
2. Stay motivated
3. Improve their artistry, speed and power, and presentation a great deal
4. Regain the backing of the Chinese federation as the Chinese #1 pair

They definitely have a shot of winning a World title from 2012-2014. The Germans probably wont stay this consistent forever given their history, of course I could be wrong on that. Kavaguti & Smirnov are not that young, havent won a major title yet, and she is prone to injuries so far. Pang & Tong seem to be struggling and arent that young either, which could open the door for a revived Zhang & Zhang to return to Chinese #1 at some point. Sui & Han are upredictable at this point, as Volosozhar & Morozov and the younger Russians.

Of course those are alot of what ifs, but I dont think it is impossible for them in the next 3 seasons which is why I started the thread. I think if they make it to Worlds this particular year though a top 5 would be a reasonably good result, and a bronze would be incredible. I dont think this year they could realistically vye to win having missed almost the whole season and having been nowhere close to the top team when they last competed.

The injury is he-Zhang's finger(s). I'm sure they can and have been training everything except lifts and throws. So, they likely will not need so much time to get back to competitive readiness as most injuries require.

They may even take this time to greatly improve their jumps and spins.