Flutzing

bigsisjiejie said:

It's an age thing in that it relates to strength.

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I agree. I think this is what makes the lutz very difficult. It doesn't rely on you starting the momentum on the ice with a three turn like the flip, toe, and salchow. It's very much a strength jump, like the loop, and the axel.

Another thing that makes it difficult, is you have to shift your center completely to the outside. On the other jumps (with the exception of the axel), your weight is already where it should be, because of the jump's entrance. One slight shift on the lutz can result in a fall, or a flutz.

You can do a flip, toe loop, and salchow without the three turn. You should never "use the momentum" of the turn per se to do the jump. If you do that, they become little spinny jumps as opposed to really nice ones that can become multirevolution jumps

Sorry for coming in late to this thread.

Joesitz said:

No, there is no culture in Japan for flutzing, but like the US, imo, there is a rush to be the best. Developing a true Lutz takes time and lot of practice for the takeoff as well as jumping into a counter rotation position. The jump has been misconstrued despite the clear definition of the element.

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Yes. It appears that way. Plus, I agree with others here who have alluded to the ISU being at least partly to blame for this trend, given that two fairly recent Olympic gold medalists had flutzes. How is it surprising that the issue was de-prioritized?

Joesitz said:

The ISU perpetuates the Flutz by calling it a Wrong Edge Take-off when in fact, the take off any jump is what gives a jump a name. So without a defined take-off whatever jump was intended did not occur, and very often one sees two Flips in the same competition. If there is no base values for an unnamed jump, the Wrong Unknown Jump should register a 0 zero without going into the positive aspects of a second Flip which did not even show a counter rotation because a Flip has no counter rotation.

I happen to think that most European skaters do indeed execute proper Lutzes.

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In general, for some reason, I agree. Euro and Canadian skaters generally seem to do better about proper edges.

Personally, I am extremely tempted to agree with you about wrong and faulty jumps being given a zero. I think I argued the same thing in another thread in the past, given that there is little to differentiate between a flip and a flutz and the Zayak rule on jumps is in place so that skaters must demonstrate different skill sets. I also agree with you in that the LANDING is a feature of a jump as well, so the ISU is again being confusing when falls and trip-ups on jump landings can still make the jump count.

On the other hand, I can almost understand why the ISU is "merciful". If a skater does something that is still rather difficult and spectacular (e.g. a triple flutz with perfect landing, full rotation, great height), shouldn't they still be given more credit than a skater who doesn't manage or even attempt to do that?

It's a very difficult issue and I can't offer solutions better than what ISU has right now. It'd be sad to see a skater lose a competition on a small edge call and for being given a flat 0 for that jump.

Mathman said:

IMHO the ISU has painted itself into a corner with respect to how to score a flutz.

On the one hand, a system based on absolute scoring cannot give points for what you intended to do or attempted to do. If you hoped to do a Lutz jump, tried to do a Lutz jump, prayed please God let me do a Lutz jump -- but then you don't -- how can any scoring system give you points for that?

On the other hand, the CoP gives out points for everything that you accomplish. If you launch yourself into the air somehow, turn around three times, and land on your feet, you have done something. You haven't doen a Lutz jump, but you have done something. So you should get some points, right?

There is only one way out (Imaginary Pogue will shoot me for saying this). That is for the ISU to frankly admit the the CoP is not logically consistent. So what? It has this in common with all human endeavor.

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Yes, exactly the way I see it in other words.

Lastly, a few final questions for the skaters on this board:

Is a triple flutz more difficult or easier than a triple flip? Does the turn-into-the-flip make it easier or more difficult than without? Or are they both about the same level of difficulty? I, too, thought the turns into the flip added to the momentum, but mskater's last post seems to imply that if anything, they add a little more difficulty into it, almost like a transition into the jump take-off.

Also, when skaters Lip, are they counter-rotating to do the jump?

Bump...just this once. Can anybody answer whether a Flip or a Flutz is easier? And whether there is counter-rotation in a Lip?

prettykeys said:

Bump...just this once. Can anybody answer whether a Flip or a Flutz is easier? And whether there is counter-rotation in a Lip?

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From personal experience: there is very little counter-rotation on a lip; most of the counter-rotation feeling on the Lutz comes from the setup (usually the prolonged back outside edge), so a lip, while it has some counter-rotation, is basically an effect of the shoulders overrotating in anticipation of the jump more than anything else (IMO). It certainly doesn't have the same feeling as a proper Lutz, at least for me. As for a flutz, well, call me crazy, but I find it more difficult than a proper Lutz, and I'd find a flip easier if only because you have rotational momentum on your side (from the 3-turn or mohawk entry). Think of it; for a flutz, you're setting yourself up in a counter-rotation, then you switch over, thus bringing yourself to the 'proper' rotational direction, but part of your body may still be aligned counter-rotationally, which would make the jump more difficult. On a flip, your shoulders, arms, hips, free leg, etc. are all heading in the same direction: in your rotational direction.

This is just my personal opinion, though. I have never flutzed but I am occasionally guilty of lipping, which only makes my flips look worse than they normally are.

prettykeys said:

Bump...just this once. Can anybody answer whether a Flip or a Flutz is easier? And whether there is counter-rotation in a Lip?

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From my experiences as a skater, I don't know if one would necessarily be easier than the other. I've been taught to jump with a strong outside edge on a lutz, so I don't know, but I would assume that a flip would still be easier than a flutz. With a flutz, you're essentially going into the jump with the setup for a lutz and at the last minute, changing the jump to a flip. I would imagine that would add an extra, uneeded amount of stress on the skater before the jump. You're twisting your body for the lutz and swinging into the flutz at the last minute, which I doubt is good for the body and would ultimately be riskier in terms of getting the right amount of height or staying vertical in the air while rotating - Caroline would be the most exaggerated case I can think of at right now.

The lutz jump is actually not necessarily more "difficult" than the flip or the other jumps contrary to popular belief. If you're taught properly from when you're learning single jumps, it's actually a really fun and rewarding jump. The "counter-rotation" setup on the lutz can give you such snap and height on the jump if done properly, and it's definitely my favorite triple. I get such an adrenaline rush whenever I get a nice spring on the lutz. SUCH a great feeling.

Again, I'm not sure about the lip but there must definitely be that feeling of "counter-rotation" since you're taking off an outside edge which is "opposite" the direction of your rotation in the air.

Hope that helps!

herro said:

From my experiences as a skater, I don't know if one would necessarily be easier than the other. I've been taught to jump with a strong outside edge on a lutz, so I don't know, but I would assume that a flip would still be easier than a flutz. With a flutz, you're essentially going into the jump with the setup for a lutz and at the last minute, changing the jump to a flip. I would imagine that would add an extra, uneeded amount of stress on the skater before the jump. You're twisting your body for the lutz and swinging into the flutz at the last minute, which I doubt is good for the body and would ultimately be riskier in terms of getting the right amount of height or staying vertical in the air while rotating - Caroline would be the most exaggerated case I can think of at right now.

The lutz jump is actually not necessarily more "difficult" than the flip or the other jumps contrary to popular belief. If you're taught properly from when you're learning single jumps, it's actually a really fun and rewarding jump. The "counter-rotation" setup on the lutz can give you such snap and height on the jump if done properly, and it's definitely my favorite triple. I get such an adrenaline rush whenever I get a nice spring on the lutz. SUCH a great feeling.

Again, I'm not sure about the lip but there must definitely be that feeling of "counter-rotation" since you're taking off an outside edge which is "opposite" the direction of your rotation in the air.

Hope that helps!

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Yes, thank you. Those are exactly the kinds of insights and comments I was looking for. I especially appreciate how you describe why you like the Lutz - strange, I have never done a skating jump, but I always imagined the "snap" of the Lutz as satisfying, too. Like Newton's Third Law of Motion.

Kypma said:

From personal experience: there is very little counter-rotation on a lip; most of the counter-rotation feeling on the Lutz comes from the setup (usually the prolonged back outside edge), so a lip, while it has some counter-rotation, is basically an effect of the shoulders overrotating in anticipation of the jump more than anything else (IMO). It certainly doesn't have the same feeling as a proper Lutz, at least for me. As for a flutz, well, call me crazy, but I find it more difficult than a proper Lutz, and I'd find a flip easier if only because you have rotational momentum on your side (from the 3-turn or mohawk entry). Think of it; for a flutz, you're setting yourself up in a counter-rotation, then you switch over, thus bringing yourself to the 'proper' rotational direction, but part of your body may still be aligned counter-rotationally, which would make the jump more difficult. On a flip, your shoulders, arms, hips, free leg, etc. are all heading in the same direction: in your rotational direction.

This is just my personal opinion, though. I have never flutzed but I am occasionally guilty of lipping, which only makes my flips look worse than they normally are.

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Ooh, and thank you for these insights, as well. I bolded the part that I found especially helpful.

It sounds as if good technique may be harder to learn for many new skaters, but once it's attained, it makes jumps more consistent and of higher quality. (Yes, Captain Obvious is my friend. But seriously, I like to hear people explain why. Thanks, you two. )

gourry said:

I read here at Goldenskate often times that a triple jump is actually 2 1/4 rotation in the air with actual(but not ideal I should say) prerotation and acceptable underrotation. That makes triple axel 2 3/4 rotation if you do the math. So, by this logic, triple lutz and triple axel have same rotation in the air!! And their base value difference is how much right now? Isn't it amazing?

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Um... unless you have weird technique (e.g. Evan Lysacek) on the axel, you should take off forward and land backward (with up to 1/4 turn on the ice), so a 3A is 3 1/4 rotations in the air.

Only now have I had the chance to read this thread (most of it anyway, some I just skimmed over), and the reason why I did so is because of Elizaveta T. (Mishin's wunderkid).

I watched Elizaveta's 2010 Nationals LP the other day over & over again ad nauseum because I was fascinated how there is absolutey NO prerotation or underrotation of any kind whatsoever on her 3lutz jump. I honestly haven't seen that since Oksana Baiul, Irina Slutskaya, Julia Sebestyen, and quite a few other European skaters. Also, I'm sure Yuna Kim's is like this as well (I'll have to check but IIRC she jumps like the aforementioned European skaters). I sooooooooo wish there were American skaters nowadays that can jump like that without even an 1/8th or 1/4 turn prerotation or underrotation. I can just imagine the +3 GOE they would get across the board and deservedly so! Anyhow, I just had to mention this because it fascinates me, lol.

Hopefully one day the European coaches will share their secrets with the Americans, but then again I recall Tonya Harding, whom had the best jumps out of all of them, almost overrating her jumps! What happened? It's so sad how Tonya was our last great American female skater, after her everybody else started to jump small with quick rotations, flutzing, underrotating, et al.

Here's hoping somebody like Agnes Zawadzki will change all that. ^)

Nadine said:

Hopefully one day the European coaches will share their secrets with the Americans, but then again I recall Tonya Harding, whom had the best jumps out of all of them, almost overrating her jumps! What happened? It's so sad how Tonya was our last great American female skater, after her everybody else started to jump small with quick rotations, flutzing, underrotating, et al.

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Tonya and Midori were force of natures. They were so powerful that even if their technique wasn't the best, they were bound to rotate their jumps with that much height in the air. I don't think Midori had the best technique on her jumps. She was taught by Yamada and she had a leg wrap. I think Tonya had better technique but some of air positions were tilted, so not sure. I can't think of any skaters after them who had as much natural strength, so correct technique would be more important.

Interesting observations, miki88, I concur.

I also find it fascinating how both Tonya & Evgeni tend to tilt some of their jumps in their air, yet are able to manage to land them with finesse, with cat feet if you will. When I saw it in person at the 2010 Olympics I was astonished, the ENTIRE audience was in fact, we all saw how tilted in the air he was (right in front of me!) but yet managed to land all those gorgeous jumps with the ease of a cat. ^) Which kinda makes me think that's the way they are supposed to be done? Seriously, I've contemplated this for some time now thinking it's just too much of a coincidence for arguably two of the greatest jumpers in history to have this in common...

Back to Russian skaters and their ability to do jumps such as the 3lutz without any kind of prerotation or underrotation. There must be something they all have in common, talking about the coaches btw, in particular Mishin. Hmmm. I know he's a professor besides a skating coach, and has also written extensively about the mechanics of jumping, even patenting a device that is supposed to track exactly how many revolutions a skater does while rotating (lol, I've seen the odd outfit some of his skaters have worn ^D). There *must* be something to it all. So many of their skaters have been great when it comes to the jumps. What they lacked was consistency for the most part, especially the women (thinking Viktoria Volchkova amongst others). Anyhow, I wish I could figure it out (a fly on the wall), and then hand over their secrets to the American skaters.

p.s. I've noticed Adelina Sotnikova has unusually broad shoulders relative to the rest of her slim boy-shaped body, which could be a factor in why her jumps are so huge, as I recall Tonya Harding's upper body strength (in particular her shoulders) is what some speculated made her able to do the 3axel jump so easily. Also, I've noticed Evgeni has very broad shoulders compared to his hips, et al (Adelina reminds me of the female version of him).

Enough, sorry for derailing the topic, but all this talk about flutzing brought to mind the long illustrious history of the Russian skaters having perfect triple lutz technique. Which I wish they would share with the rest of the world, as they have shared their coaches since the fall of the Soviet Union in 1992, and as a result skaters from other countries have benefitted from their expertise.

^^Upper body strength assists the legs in getting full rotations without cheating on the most difficult triples like 3Z and 3A. So all other things being equal, a skater with powerful upper arm, shoulder, and chest muscles should have an edge in jumping these. Note this does not mean "Mr/Ms Universe" muscles!

As for tilting on jumps--no it isn't "the way they are supposed to be done." It's just that Tonya and Evgeni are so strong, and also have incredibly good proprioception so they know exactly where/how they are in the air, and can compensate for the air tilt, produce a foot, and still land on it. Lesser jumpers would just tilt in the air, attempt to land, and go down or at least step out.

Speaking only from my own experience - I've learnt the jumps in the following order: toe-loop, salchow, loop, flip, lutz.

At the moment I find the flip easier, but the lutz is the jump I've worked on for the lest mount of time. I also am much happier with toe jumps than edge jumps, and I hate the loop most of all the jumps. I'd rather attempt a lutz than a loop.

I don't necessairly agree a a lutz (single rather than anything else) really requires more strength. My own obersvations (certainly at the single jump level) is if you need strength to pull off a jump your technique is wrong. When you get a jump just right it feels effortless and takes less energy than a badly done jump. Case in point at the moment is my still-a-work-in-progress flip. Some days I can do several one after the other, they're easy, have a nice pop and flow out. Other days attempting just a handful of ones that land on one foot but have multiple problems with them wipe me out.

I have a tendancy to flutz my lutz attempts at the moment and I speculate it's because my body is learning muscle memory for a left foot take off with right toe assist - and that's the flip. It's the most similar feeling jump my body knows and tries to recreate it. I can get a strong back outside edge, but i simply release my upper body too soon and curve the edge to inside just before i jump.

I'm having to learn to overexagerate the right arm back and hold it, hold, it hold it until my right pick has gone in. When i do that I take off properly, feel the pop....and two foot the landing! If I aim for a one foot landing I flutz....

Conclusion: skating is hard!

Ant

prettykeys said:

Bump...just this once. Can anybody answer whether a Flip or a Flutz is easier? And whether there is counter-rotation in a Lip?

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In my experience (including a bunch of lutzes this morning, of which I scrutinized every takeoff edge tracing, LOL!), a flip is MUCH easier than a flutz. On a flip, everything flows effortlessly as the 3-turn/mohawk sets you up for the takeoff and rotation, all in the same direction. On a flutz, you are trying your darnedest to stay on that outside edge, but as you reach back to pick, your picking side comes forward and down ever so slightly and your weight shifts over to the inside of the blade (it's less than 1/4" between outside edge and inside edge). It is *VERY* hard to keep this from happening, it is never intentional, and it often messes up the takeoff and ruins the jump entirely. Having said that, I agree with the flutz being worth less than the flip (which it is now, after the edge call and -GOE), since this creates an incentive to correct flutzing.

As for the "lip", there would technically be a little counter-rotation, but the skater is not creating it on purpose. It happens for one of two reasons: Either the skater is reaching too far back with the picking side (I think this is what happens with a lot of the men that lip), or the skater cannot keep the hips and shoulders still and swerves from inside to outside--and often back to inside-- while reaching back and picking.

Nadine said:

I sooooooooo wish there were American skaters nowadays that can jump like that without even an 1/8th or 1/4 turn prerotation or underrotation. I can just imagine the +3 GOE they would get across the board and deservedly so! . . . It's so sad how Tonya was our last great American female skater, after her everybody else started to jump small with quick rotations, flutzing, underrotating, et al.

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Haven't you seen Alissa Czisny's 3Lz? Not only does it take off from a clean outside edge, but it is a *deep* outside edge with clear counter-rotation. And she's actually been landing most of them this season!

Mirai Nagasu was not getting nearly as many edge calls on her lutz two years ago. It could be that her body has changed and made it harder for her to stay on that outside edge, but it's more likely that her flutz is just very slight and the callers just keep getting stricter.

I think the lutz is easier for some skaters and the flip is easier for others. There are some days where one is good but the other is bad, and then it will be reversed the next day. Also, I think it has to do with body shape. If you are "knocked-kneed" it may be harder to stay on the outside edge, even if you try, because of the way your legs are shaped. However, if you are "bow-legged" it may be easier to stay on the outside edge.
It's a personal preference. I find the loop to be the easiest jump, but the ISU ranks it after the toe and the sal.

Mathman said:

"Well…

Of course the world didn’t stand still. The world grew.
In a couple of years, the new highway came through
And they built it right over those two stubborn Zax
And left them there, standing un-budged in their tracks."

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You know this has to be turned into a joke because the Rule of Definitions and the Rule of Actions do not mix. If you really agree there is such a thing as a Wrong Edge Takeoff, then say you believe in it, and that any toe take off can be called a lutz. All the skater has to do is say it was Intended even though I actually did a Toe Loop.

The definition does hurt the little girls who want to become famous at an early age without putting in the work for it. What other Sport pampers its athletes so well as figure skating?

Never mind.

GOOD! You can be imaginative. For a system as nitty gritty as the CoP which recognizes the strict judgement of Under Rotations whether or not they disrupt the Flow of skating, to be so lenient when it comes to an element's definition shows a lack of understanding in the Sport.

They could amend this to have automatic deductions in many cases, URs for one. But if the name of a jump comes from its Takeoff, then that's what should be shown in a competition otherwise that intended jump never happened, if indeed, it was intended. Who knows? One should be judged on what is seen, not intended. Isn't that an axiom of the CoP?