Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

gkelly said:

If Slutskaya of 1996-99 -- two-time European champion, two-time world medalist during that period -- was a second tier skater, then the first tier during those years must have been mighty small. I'm sure you would include Kwan. How about Lipinski, Butyrskaya, or Chen? After those four, there is no one who had a better record than Slutskaya during those years.

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Kwan, Chen, Lipinski, were the only skaters who were any threat to win major titles during the 96-98 period, with Butyrskaya becoming a threat for the 99 World title only since nearly everyone had retired/was out. Thus they are the only first tier skaters during that period. The next best- Slutskaya, Gusmeroli, Hubert, etc...only hoped to maybe eke in for a bronze at a major event during this time. Slutskaya was probably the best of the 2nd tier but she was about 2 huge levels below the skater Kwan was during this period. There was never the faintest hope of any of those winning a big title as they were not even in the league as the leaders. My point is the the Slutskaya of 96-99 was no threat at all to Michelle, nor would one even dare to compare this version of Slutskaya to Yu Na Kim or Asada (personally I think even the Slutskaya of 2000-2005 except maybe late 04-2005 is clearly inferior to Kim too but anyhow).

pangtongfan said:

Fair point, but the point is that it is very clear either Mao or Yu Na could have won the Olympics and Worlds that year. In fact Mao would have been the favorite for the Olympic Gold had she been eligible to compete. The Olympic Champion Shizuka was 0-3 vs Mao that year.

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I don't think that either Mao or Yu Na could've won worlds that year. Sure they had the triples and triple-triples, but a lot more goes into winning a gold medal than just those jumps. Perhaps Mao and Yu Na could've been in the final group, like Kimmie and Emily had been, but I doubt that both would've medaled, or that one would've won. Certainly, Yu Na had admitted that season (during the Jr Worlds press conference) that she needs to improve presentation and her flexibility. Coming off the Junior circuit, I highly doubt that either of them would've won the Olympics.

ao's skating matured a lot since then. Sure her programs/style haven't been well-received in recent years but there's refinement in her skating than back in 2005. However, what she did have back then was a fearless attitude. She just went out there as if she had no pressure. This is the perhaps the greatest asset that young skaters have in competing. It's what gave Lipinski the edge ahead of Michelle. She really skated as if she had nothing to lose. So although I wouldn't say 2005 Mao was her best in terms of skating, but she was at her best as a competitor.

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I agree and I would add that even in Mao has only improved in maturity she when she was on, she was still head and shoulders above the competition last year except for Kim.

It'll be interesting to see how she does in the years to come. Her career has been so strange the past two years. But Olympic silver medalist and World Champion ...it seems that maintaining her technical level from '06 and adding maturity served her well

blue dog said:

I don't think that either Mao or Yu Na could've won worlds that year. Sure they had the triples and triple-triples, but a lot more goes into winning a gold medal than just those jumps. Perhaps Mao and Yu Na could've been in the final group, like Kimmie and Emily had been, but I doubt that both would've medaled, or that one would've won. Certainly, Yu Na had admitted that season (during the Jr Worlds press conference) that she needs to improve presentation and her flexibility. Coming off the Junior circuit, I highly doubt that either of them would've won the Olympics.

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Eh, I agree with you re Olympics. (Shiz still would have won) but I think Mao might have beat Kimmie. Kimmie had good energy but still she was mostly known as a tech skater with work-in-progress artistry.

Also, even though Kimmie wasn't coming off juniors her victory was still an out of nowhere stunner... she wasn't even the U.S. champion and hadn't even medaled at a worlds yet. Actually, I think she hadn't even BEEN to a worlds! Correct me if I'm wrong... So Mao might have had a similar stunner.

blue dog said:

I don't think that either Mao or Yu Na could've won worlds that year. Sure they had the triples and triple-triples, but a lot more goes into winning a gold medal than just those jumps. Perhaps Mao and Yu Na could've been in the final group, like Kimmie and Emily had been, but I doubt that both would've medaled, or that one would've won. Certainly, Yu Na had admitted that season (during the Jr Worlds press conference) that she needs to improve presentation and her flexibility. Coming off the Junior circuit, I highly doubt that either of them would've won the Olympics.

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First off you started your post saying "worlds". Perhaps it was a typo and you meant the Olympics, but are you forgetting who won Worlds that year? Kimmie Meissner. So obviously you could win Worlds with really nothing but triple-triples, even cheated ones. There is nothing Meissner can do that Asada or Kim who dominated her in juniors and her entire career couldnt do better so obviously yes Asada or Kim could have easily won Worlds either of them had skated well.

Now about the Olympics while you make some valid points, Mao Asada had already proved she was superior to Arakawa that season with her perfect 3-0 record. And while Shizuka did probably skate better at the Games it was nothing spectacular, I dont see why Mao skating as she did at the GP final would have had any problem defeating her. Yu Na Kim won World Juniors with a LP score of close to 120 IIRC, and juniors scoring tends to be tougher than seniors. Yu Na already had better quality jumps than any of the top Senior women in addition to triple-triples. Her "artistry" was not great yet but it was still fairly nice, the only great artistic skater left in 2006 was Sasha Cohen who as always couldnt keep her butt off the ice. The caliber of skating in Turin was not high, and Mao had already shown her dominance of the top senior level skaters that season, so I dont know how you think she was going to just be dropped to an Emily Hughes level standing at the Games, LOL!

Mathman said:

OK, let's get some logic going here. Since Michelle and Yu-na never competed against each other, all we can do is examine their records against mutual opponents.

Kim beat Asada at the 2010 Olympics. Asada beat Slutskaya at the 2005 Grand Prix Final. Slutskaya beat Kwan at 2002 Worlds.

But wait! Kwan beat Slutskaya at 2001 Worlds, Slutskaya beat Asada at 2005 Eric Bompard, and Asada beat Kim at 2010 worlds.

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Lol that makes perfect sense

antmanb said:

No, Sonia Henie would have beaten them both!!



Ant

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ant is that you?

Mathman said:

Why, thank you!

OK, let's get some logic going here. Since Michelle and Yu-na never competed against each other, all we can do is examine their records against mutual opponents.

Kim beat Asada at the 2010 Olympics. Asada beat Slutskaya at the 2005 Grand Prix Final. Slutskaya beat Kwan at 2002 Worlds.

But wait! Kwan beat Slutskaya at 2001 Worlds, Slutskaya beat Asada at 2005 Eric Bompard, and Asada beat Kim at 2010 worlds.

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You are welcome because we all know that while I respect the opinions of ubers, I would never, ever qualify as one. I'm probably the most objective & fairminded poster here - even more non-uber than even R.D.

But seriously - I think it would've been interesting to see how a skater like Yuna who despite having wonderful atributes and technical abilities would've faired under 6.0 when not skating clean was the kiss of death - esp when you compete against skaters like Kwan and Irina or as I prefer to think of it: "go clean or go home."

Also, "In Her Prime" Michelle had a very consistent 3 x 3 along with a full set of triples and outstanding SS, Footwork, Sprials, Transitions, and Cheoro. I'm not a tech-head fan, but if you look at a program like Red Violin, I believe that outside of wacky spin combos, that program would be competitive today.

Personally, I would be more interested in discussing how an "At Her Prime" skater like Sasha would've faired under the current version of CoP. Even with her mistakes, I believe Sasha's original Tat Swan would've made so serious noise in a head to head against Yuna.

I have chosen NOT to include Mao on this list since I don't believe we've seen an "In Her Prime" Mao just yet... Actually, despite all the Yuna-Luv these days, I honestly believe that in five years these types of threads will be "Would XXX beat an in her prime Mao?" She's still got time...

Anywho - for those of us that simply love beautiful skating, I've included the links to what I think of as each skater's "In Her Prime" programs for enjoyment, review and critique. Enjoy!

Michelle's Red Violin*: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BkjvqrSut1g
*please note that this is not what I consider to be Kwan's BEST competition program. That honor goes to her 2004 Nationals version of Tosca - Kwan at her arrogant best... it still makes me swoon...

Irina's Wonderland: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zek69FhRfBc

DivaKwara's Turnadot: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xzGdVragbo

Sasha's Swan: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ouNL5ux17c4

Yuna's Gershwin: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XN86f-5sXGY

Layfan said:

Also, even though Kimmie wasn't coming off juniors her victory was still an out of nowhere stunner... she wasn't even the U.S. champion and hadn't even medaled at a worlds yet. Actually, I think she hadn't even BEEN to a worlds! Correct me if I'm wrong... So Mao might have had a similar stunner.

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Slightly OT, but Kimmie is, I believe, one of the only two women who won the Worlds in their first try. The only other one was Oksana. Even Sonja and Katarina had been to Worlds before they finally won it.

blue dog said:

Slightly OT, but Kimmie is, I believe, one of the only two women who won the Worlds in their first try. The only other one was Oksana. Even Sonja and Katarina had been to Worlds before they finally won it.

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That's funny I was just thinking about the the same thing ... I was thinking woah, Kimmie's world victory has got to be the biggest upset at worlds victory since Oksana.

I'd rank Sarah Hughes's Olympic gold as the greatest upset of all time but maybe Oksana's world victory second. Kimmie's was awesome but quite as impressive as her's was post-Olympics. I still groan when I think about Sasha not winning that worlds. I mean, if ever there was a competition that was hers for the taking it was that one. But then, I'm always happy for Kimmie when I think about it.

Sorry for the OT post but it's interesting...

Sasha would have to go down as one of the most overhyped skaters ever. Touted as the heir apparent to Kwan as the dominant US and World skater, picked to win Nationals and Worlds every year since 2003 (many were even picking her to win the 2002 Olympics the night before the free skate final too). Yet not a single World title, not an Olympic Gold of course, and only 1 National title when Kwan didnt compete.

Now compare the hype levels of Sasha Cohen to skaters like Sarah Hughes, Maria Butyrskaya, and Fumie Suguri who are almost ignored by the mass media. Yet Hughes and Butyrskaya probably had better careers, and Suguri isnt far behind.

Kwanford Wife said:

You are welcome because we all know that while I respect the opinions of ubers, I would never, ever qualify as one. I'm probably the most objective & fairminded poster here - even more non-uber than even R.D.

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*snort* *Cough* *choke* *gag*

I can't believe I am replying to this thread (didn't we went through this a few months ago or every other month?), I love them both, but I think the thread title is totally misleading: Could Kwan in her prime beat a clean Yu Na Kim

It lacks in Context. After all, context is so important when appraising sporting accolades in sporting history. So to answer the question breaking down in context.

1. An injured Kim. Yes.
2. At an Olympics? No.
3. Under the current COP. No.
4. Under the 6.0 system, depends if the competition takes place in US (Politicking was such a big thing back then), and on Rep Points collected.
5. Depends on the choreography, Yuna may do it with Lark Ascending and Tango De Roxanne if performed cleanly for example.
6. It is unconfirmed if Yuna has reached her prime, we should wait and see.
7. Which performance and which competition would you consider as Michelle's Prime, and Yuna's Prime/Clean? If is her Gershwin at the Olympics, with that amount of technical difficulty. Hell No.

I feel people focus on individual elements too much. What you can once upon a time do in competition and during practice are just work. They are meaningless unless you do it when it count. Or do it when they match up head to head. They are both strong competitors, and they tends to exceed their potentials when they meet their greatest rivals, so unless they really match up head to head, it is impossible to know what they are each capable of.

Another factor which might been often over looked: Luck. It does play a big part in how some of the positions can ends up on the day despite what we know certain skaters are capable of.

So in Summary, this is an annoying and exasperating question we should never find out the answer to, it can only leads painful and unsatisfactory answers for the fans of either/both parties.

Tonichelle said:

*snort* *Cough* *choke* *gag*

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pangtongfan said:

Sasha would have to go down as one of the most overhyped skaters ever. Touted as the heir apparent to Kwan as the dominant US and World skater, picked to win Nationals and Worlds every year since 2003 (many were even picking her to win the 2002 Olympics the night before the free skate final too). Yet not a single World title, not an Olympic Gold of course, and only 1 National title when Kwan didnt compete.

Now compare the hype levels of Sasha Cohen to skaters like Sarah Hughes, Maria Butyrskaya, and Fumie Suguri who are almost ignored by the mass media. Yet Hughes and Butyrskaya probably had better careers, and Suguri isnt far behind.

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You're missing the point. At her prime, even with errors, Sasha would've faired much better in the current field and under the current version of CoP than against Kwan and Irina. And for the record, Sasha could've won the gold in 2002. Hell, she fell twice and still captured the silver. I would even go as far to say that in terms of consistency and skaing clean - Yuna is closer to Sasha than she is to Kwan...

I think you meant 2006 but yes, she could have won gold. Ah... there were so many of those years that she could have won gold. But two world silvers, a bronze and an Olympic silver medal... not bad

Kwanford Wife said:

You're missing the point. At her prime, even with errors, Sasha would've faired much better in the current field and under the current version of CoP than against Kwan and Irina.

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LOL what is your basis for that. Kim and Asada have easily eclipsed all the scores Sasha set in her prime, and the scoring in fall 2003 where Sasha set all her highest marks was like free candy anyway. And we all saw how Sasha's comeback against the current field under COP fared. Sasha with her 2006 Olympic Silver performances would have been buried in the 2010 Olympics, probably been about 8th.

Kim and Asada are far stronger jumpers, even if they also make some mistakes their base values and GOEs will kill Sasha's, also have strong non jump elements, and far superior basic skating and speed (part of PCS) then Sasha ever had. Sasha couldnt even beat 15 year Asada when they met in fall 2005, and Mao made some mistakes at that event including falling on a spin, while Sasha had just one fall in the long (which for her is pretty much her max performance). Asada's overall jumping ability was too far beyond Sasha's, and her PCS given even at only 15 was nearly the same.

And for the record, Sasha could've won the gold in 2002. Hell, she fell twice and still captured the silver.

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Could have, would have, should have, story of Sasha's career. Sasha proved herself incapable of skating cleanly so it doesnt matter. So yes if Sasha had skated cleanly which is about the chance of winning a lottery and everyone else had still skated like crap for their standards as the rest especialy Irina did (and with Kwan, Kim, and Asada all kept out of the Olympics by either unfortunate injury or a stupid rule), then with all that happening yes she could have won. If we dig far enough we can probably find a scenario Fumie Suguri could have won too.

Anyway if you want to go there If Shizuka had done 6 triples instead of 5, even without a triple-triple, she could have won even over a clean Sasha, considering she won by a 2 fall margin as it was (and Sasha's 2nd fall wasnt counted as that which it should have been). That isnt even mentioning in practice Shizuka showed herself easily capable of doing 2 triple-triples as well (and in competition had shown it too at the 2004 Worlds). If Irina had skated like she had all of fall 2004 and all of 2005 before the GP final, Sasha wouldnt have had a hope. If Mao had been able to skate at the Olympics and had a good competition Sasha wouldnt have had a hope.

In the end all we know is this. Sasha didnt win, like she has never won a major event, and even with the fall and a half it was one of her best performances ever and she still wasnt close to winning even in the worst skated womens event in Olympic history. Yet she was hyped to win every Nationals, Worlds, and Olympics from 2003-2006. She was touted as the successor to Kwan, and who would ecilpse Kwan as an even greater skater. In retrospect easily one of the most overhyped skaters in history.

That assumed Sasha was clean. When was Sasha ever clean? And Shizuka hadn't skated. Irina hadn't skated. Shizuka was more than capable of beating Sasha in 2006 if both were clean and both doing the intended program. They probably would've given the title to Irina if all 3 were clean.
Out of the 3, Shizuka's PCS should be way higher than the other 2.

yaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwwnnnnnnnn.

pangtongfan said:

LOL what is your basis for that. Kim and Asada have easily eclipsed all the scores Sasha set in her prime, and the scoring in fall 2003 where Sasha set all her highest marks was like free candy anyway. And we all saw how Sasha's comeback against the current field under COP fared. Sasha with her 2006 Olympic Silver performances would have been buried in the 2010 Olympics, probably been about 8th.

Kim and Asada are far stronger jumpers, even if they also make some mistakes their base values and GOEs will kill Sasha's, also have strong non jump elements, and far superior basic skating and speed (part of PCS) then Sasha ever had. Sasha couldnt even beat 15 year Asada when they met in fall 2005, and Mao made some mistakes at that event while Sasha had just one fall in the long (which for her is pretty much her max performance).




Could have, would have, should have, who cares. Sasha proved herself incapable of skating cleanly so it doesnt matter. So yes if Sasha had skated cleanly which is about the chance of winning a lottery and everyone else had still skated like crap for their standards as the rest especialy Irina did (and with Kwan, Kim, and Asada all kept out of the Olympics by either unfortunate injury or a stupid rule), then with all that happening yes she could have won. If we dig far enough we can probably find a scenario Fumie Suguri could have won too.

Anyway if you want to go there If Shizuka had done 6 triples instead of 5, even without a triple-triple, she could have won even over a clean Sasha, considering she won by a 2 fall margin as it was (and Sasha's 2nd fall wasnt counted as that which it should have been). If Irina had skated like she had all of fall 2004 and all of 2005 before the GP final, Sasha wouldnt have had a hope. If Mao had been able to skate at the Olympics and had a good competition Sasha wouldnt have had a hope.

In the end all we know is this. Sasha didnt win, like she has never won a major event, and
even with the fall and a half it was one of her best performances ever and she still wasnt close to winning even in the worst skated womens event in Olympic history.

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Again, you miss the point. You cannot offer up a hypothetical situation and then say its improbable. The original arguemnt is "In Her Prime." My arguement is that "In Her Prime" and under the CoP, Sasha would've faired well. She's a lovely skater who lacked the ability to skate clean - but what she did do, received huge scores. I am putting forth that arguement that Yuna is not a clean skater but that its possible to liken her success to competing in an era where mistakes are overlooked because the overall skating is so superior like Sasha' legions who have contented that she's so awesome that her splats didn't matter. IMO, I believe Yuna and Sasha have more in common than say Yuna & Kwan or Yuna & Irina. Totally different eras, totally different set of rules. And with all due respect to Yuna, she simply doesn't have the resume of these two - their greatness is based on longevity, impact and legendary status.

And for the last time - this whole thread is coulda woulda shoulda. This is not Hogwarts. These competitions never happened. You cannot put forth an arguementon something that's never gonna happen and then get upset when confronted with a different opinion. Sometimes the only thing I believe you want to read is that Yuna Kim is the greatest of all time, unbeatable and the greatest of not only her generation, but of every other one. And you will be disappointed because its never. gonna. happen. There is only one Kwan.

So just enjoy different opinions - you'll live longer.

Kwanford Wife said:

Again, you miss the point. You cannot offer up a hypothetical situation and then say its improbable. The original arguemnt is "In Her Prime." My arguement is that "In Her Prime" and under the CoP, Sasha would've faired well.

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She did far well. 2nd, 3rd, and 4th often. Which is all she was ever going to be despite the hype machine.

She's a lovely skater who lacked the ability to skate clean - but what she did do, received huge scores.

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How would one know, she never skated cleanly.

I am putting forth that arguement that Yuna is not a clean skater but that its possible to liken her success to competing in an era where mistakes are overlooked because the overall skating is so superior like Sasha' legions who have contented that she's so awesome that her splats didn't matter. IMO, I believe Yuna and Sasha have more in common than say Yuna & Kwan or Yuna & Irina.

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Yu Na is doing programs with very difficult triple-triples and a higher base value than all the others (except sometimes Asada) so she can afford to make a mistake or two. With Sasha this was never the case.

Totally different eras, totally different set of rules. And with all due respect to Yuna, she simply doesn't have the resume of these two - their greatness is based on longevity, impact and legendary status.

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Are you seriously suggesting Irina Slutskaya is a greater skater than Yu Na Kim. That is just funny. Yu Na Kim is an infinitely stronger jumper and artist both than Slutskaya ever was. As for credentials alone 1 World + 1 Olympics > 2 Worlds, and Yu Na still has alot of years to go potentially.

Sometimes the only thing I believe you want to read is that Yuna Kim is the greatest of all time, unbeatable and the greatest of not only her generation, but of every other one. And you will be disappointed because its never. gonna. happen. There is only one Kwan.

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If I wanted to talk about greatest ever I would talk about Witt, Yamaguchi, or Henjie. Kwan isnt really relevant to that topic.