Ladies Free Skate and Results + GPF Finalists | Golden Skate

Ladies Free Skate and Results + GPF Finalists

IceCastles1814

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 20, 2003
From Icecalc at ISU:

LADIES FREE SKATE:

Pl. Name Nation TSS= TES+ TCS+ SS TR PE CH IN Deduction
- StN.

1 Fumie SUGURI JPN 107.58 50.70 56.88 7.30 6.95 7.10 7.05 7.15 0.00 #6
2 Elena LIASHENKO UKR 104.94 46.22 58.72 7.30 7.25 7.20 7.45 7.50 0.00 #9
3 Yoshie ONDA JPN 98.04 49.88 48.16 6.55 5.80 5.90 5.90 5.95 0.00 #8
4 Susanna POYKIO FIN 96.96 50.00 46.96 6.05 5.55 5.90 5.90 5.95 0.00 #5
5 Jennifer KIRK USA 88.72 39.76 48.96 6.20 5.90 6.25 6.10 6.15 0.00 #10
6 Yukina OTA JPN 86.07 40.79 45.28 5.60 5.40 5.75 5.70 5.85 0.00 #2
7 Anne Sophie CALVEZ FRA 83.39 43.71 39.68 5.15 4.60 4.75 5.10 5.20 0.00 #4
8 Michelle CURRIE CAN 82.64 42.80 39.84 5.15 4.80 5.00 5.15 4.80 0.00 #1
9 Dan FANG CHN 81.74 43.50 38.24 5.00 4.30 4.90 4.75 4.95 0.00 #3
10 Diana POTH HUN 78.13 35.17 42.96 5.55 5.00 5.35 5.45 5.50 0.00 #7

Wow.

Fumie wins her first GP competition, I believe :). Congratulations to Fumie, Elena, and Yoshie for medaling and all making the GPF as well as to Julia Sebestian who makes it to the final as well.

:cry: for Jenny. She, I think, will be the 1st Alternate, though. We'll see her at Nationals and I hope she will rebound there and have a good competition.


FINAL COMBINED RESULTS

Pl. Name Nation Total Score SP FS
1 Fumie SUGURI JPN 165.52 2 1
2 Elena LIASHENKO UKR 163.14 1 2
3 Yoshie ONDA JPN 154.42 3 3
4 Susanna POYKIO FIN 147.04 6 4
5 Jennifer KIRK USA 140.08 5 5
6 Yukina OTA JPN 133.79 7 6
7 Diana POTH HUN 130.37 4 10
8 Anne Sophie CALVEZ FRA 125.19 9 7
9 Dan FANG CHN 123.74 8 9
10 Michelle CURRIE CAN 123.70 10 8


The 6 Ladies' Finalists for the GPF:

1. Sasha Cohen [USA]- 24
2. Elena Liashenko [UKR]- 21
3. Fumie Suguri [JPN]- 19
4. Shizuka Arakawa [JPN]- 18
5. Yoshie Honda [JPN]- 16
6. Julia Sebestian [HUN]- 14

Congrats to these ladies! Mens to go...we'll see what happens there.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Yes, Ptchka - Picking the top 6 for the GP Finals is not easy. It's much easier to pick the top 3 for various Nats.

So in Pairs we have 3 Chinese; in Ladies we have 3 Japanese. Veeeeery interesting.

Joe
 

dewet

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
Interesting final, and it's the first time without a Russian.

Sasha looks like she will win easily, based on the other competitors consistency and/or faults.

Elena Liashenko- uhh.. I think she only won two events because her competitors needed...consistency. I still think she's a great skater though.

Fumie Suguri- needs consistency

Shizuka Arakawa-a bit more of consistency and a bit more artistry.

Yoshie Onda -artistry

Julia Sebestyen -she needs to land her BIG jumps.
 

moyesii

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Interesting final, and it's the first time without a Russian.

Interesting. Does anyone else here wish we were still under the ordinal system for the GP? Now that there might not be any bloc judging (for lack of Eastern European skaters to challenge Cohen), it'd be interesting to see how the ordinals fall. I wonder if we'd still see 5-4 splits of the judges' votes. This situation reminds me of 1992 and 1995 when there weren't any strong Russian ladies' competitors at Worlds and the results were less controversial.
 

Fossi

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
are there still two LP's? If so, I wouldn't crown Cohen the winner just yet.
 

dewet

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 28, 2003
I recall that they removed the 2nd LP. Trust me, I'm not Sasha's biggest supporter or fan and I'd be happy to see Fumie or Shizuka win, but everyone elses skating makes me believe Sasha will win.
 

euterpe

Medalist
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
Note that in the GPF we have two distinct 'teams' of skaters:

Team A: Cohen, Arakawa, Sebestyen - competed against each other at SA, SC and Lalique [Sebestyen SC and Lalique].

Team B: Liashenko, Suguri, Onda - competed against each other at Cup of China and NHK.

No one from Team B ever faced any of the Team A skaters. The top scores of the top Team B skaters match only Sebestyen, and do not approach those of Arakawa and Cohen.

Even if there were two FS in the GPF, I can't see that Cohen would lose to any of the Team B skaters, and probably not even to Arakawa.
 

Antilles

Medalist
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
I agree it's Cohen's to lose. She's got the whol package. She just needs to keep her consistency.
 

Mistyeyed

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 4, 2003
I am very sad for Jenny :cry: I was so hoping she would be able to grab a higher standing although this was pretty darn good. I just hope she keeps skating better and better. Best of luck to her at Nats!
 

thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
moyesii said:
Interesting. Does anyone else here wish we were still under the ordinal system for the GP? Now that there might not be any bloc judging (for lack of Eastern European skaters to challenge Cohen), it'd be interesting to see how the ordinals fall. I wonder if we'd still see 5-4 splits of the judges' votes. This situation reminds me of 1992 and 1995 when there weren't any strong Russian ladies' competitors at Worlds and the results were less controversial.
:confused: What? I don't know when there has been block judging in the past, but whatever. I guess the fact that Tatiana Malinina won the GPF over Butyrskaya in 1999 just left your heard :rolleye:.

I absolutely hate it when one insinuates there is an eastern block, referring to "unfairness," but totally disregards the possibility that there may be a western block as well.

Goooooooo objectivity! Wait, it wasn't used here...................

TV
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Speeking of sinister conspiracies...I don't see anything that has happened in the season yet that would push Sasha to do anything more in the Grand Prix final than she has done so far. She did, however, tweak her spiral sequence in between Skate canada and Trophee Lalique, adding an extra change of edge, to get it up to a level three. As evidenced by the results, Sasha has played the CoP perfectly.

Assuming that she wins the GP final, will she up the ante in anticipation of a showdown with Michelle? Will she put in a triple/triple (much prized by the ordinal system, a little less so by the CoP) before Nationals, just in case Michelle has something up her sleeve? Do skaters send spies into each others' camps to try to find out what they are intending?

Mathman
 

moyesii

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Yes, thvudragon, there's absolutely no such thing as bloc judging. :rolleye: It doesn't exist. We just say it does to explain all the 5-4 splits in the judging panels in the past. :rolleye:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I think the conspiracy theories that 6-9 countries who are slavic speaking made the conspiracy more of a cultural subjectivity and not a political one. As to the West conspiracy, well, I just don't see anyone aligning themselves with the Americans. Americans are not exactly the most loveable people in the world, imo. And in SLC, a Canadian Pair team with French sounding names did not for one minute influence the French judge or the French Federation. Maybe, the Danes might go along with a Norwegian, although I doubt that, too. No there is no conspiracy in the West culturally and certainly not linguistically.

I must say, the way the CoP is set up, block judging, if it exists, will take a step backwards. Of the 11 judges randomly chosen, only 9 will actually be scoring. Of the 9, the high and low scoring judges will be dropped. So the 'bloc' theory, while not perfect, certainly will be impeded by the new system.

BTW, those numbers are mine. I am not sure of the number of judges but the method is correct, I believe.

Joe
 

moyesii

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
Joesitz,
Bloc judging actually becomes more potent under the CoP, just less transparent. Under CoP, just one judge can have a huge impact on the scores. If there is indeed a certain group of conspiring judges (or even just one corrupt judge) favoring certain skaters, the results will be easily manipulated without anybody knowing.

Keep in mind that statistically, the sum of scores has no real value, because it doesn't measure a truly representative value of a set of scores. Statistically, the sum is only a preliminary step in calculating a meaningful value in a data set. The sum itself is not meaningful because of the fact that just a single score can skew the entire data set. The ordinal system is more robust than the CoP, and more of a deterrant to cheating. Under CoP, the random count of judges' marks may or may not discourage cheating, but it definitely won't guarantee that it'll stop. And once any corrupted marks get into the CoP system, they will have a huge and unfair impact on the results. All it takes is one judge.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
I don't think one judge can have that much of an effect, moyesii. First of all, the judge has to be one of the ones selected. Then, the high and low scores get thrown out. If that judge was a 'skewer', his result gets eliminated.

What IS a danger is several judges (4 or more) getting together to pre-decide the results of a competition. The likelihood of some of them being selected is high, and even if a score gets thrown out, it is probable that one or more will be included.

Anyone who thinks this can't happen has his or her head in the sand.

An interesting thing is that although the same judges sit on every panel for the same discipline, their relative position changes. I think the 'seats' are selected electronically for inclusion, so whose scoring counts depends on where they sit for each segment.
 

moyesii

Rinkside
Joined
Nov 28, 2003
First of all, the judge has to be one of the ones selected.
Random count of judges can't be relied on to salvage the many faults in the code of points. If you say that there's a 50% chance that corrupted marks won't enter the system, then you can't ignore that there's a 50% chance that they will. Leaving things up to fate doesn't solve anything, doesn't make the competition any fairer.

The worst part of random selection is that in close competitions (for ex. see Trophee Lalique men's 3rd and 4th places) the podium results will be determined completely by chance. Due to the inherent variability and systematic error in the judges' marks (including subjectivity, bias, and human error), in a close competition just one judge can have a huge impact on the final result, even if the judge wasn't intentionally trying to corrupt the marks. The only way to avoid such a problem is by using ordinals, to allow each judge to place the skater according to their own calculations, and then by comparing each judges' marks within the panel. This produces a much more statistically meaningful result, and the final results will be much more representative of the marks of the judges. By using a randomized sum of the pooled scores, the results may or may not reflect the majority opinion of the judges; most likely they will be skewed so that the total scores are misleading; and the results will ALWAYS include random chance and error in their calcualtions.

The sum of the judges' scores will always lead to faulty and misleading results (sometimes significant errors, othertimes not), and there's no way to fix that so long as the sum is used to calculate the final results.

The CoP system simply makes cheating less transparent. At least in the ordinal system, each judge was accountable for their marks. Increasing the # of judges in the panel AND using the median to calculate the final results would make the ordinal system vastly superior to the CoP system.
 

thvudragon

On the Ice
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
moyesii said:
Yes, thvudragon, there's absolutely no such thing as bloc judging. :rolleye: It doesn't exist. We just say it does to explain all the 5-4 splits in the judging panels in the past. :rolleye:
Would you like to provide some examples of how there is an eastern bloc, but no western bloc? Such assumptions we are making today!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:
 
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