Ladies FS

Layfan · Feb 1, 2011

Sasha I guess didn't have the most secure jumping tecnique but even so she managed to put out a lot of awesome programs.

I think when Mirai wins two world silvers, an Olympic silver, world bronze and a GPF final, we can start comparing her to Sasha.

Then again, Sasha hadn't done any of those things when she was 17. I see that as a postitive thing - there is still time for Mirai! Go Mirai! Don't give up.

ivy · Feb 1, 2011

R.D. said:
I don't see anything wrong or "immature" about that comment at all. If you already know exactly what you have to do to win, why even have a coach to begin with?

I guess I see as a coaching relationship as more collaborative. Helping your student to discover how to deliver their best performance.

Layfan · Feb 1, 2011

ivy said:
I guess I see as a coaching relationship as more collaborative. Helping your student to discover how to deliver their best performance.

I kind of get the feeling that Mirai doesn't have her creative voice yet. I think skating was about tricks for her for a long time. She's expressive and has the tools to be a great artistic skater - grace, lines, speed, a musical ear, natural charisma. But it takes time and effort to have your own voice and vision.

Olympia · Feb 1, 2011

R.D. said:
I can relate in a way, though. If you're someone with an unusual talent in something, where things tend to come easy to you- it's pretty tempting to fall into the trap of coasting. Rare is the person with talent AND exceptional drive. Those are the people who become the greats at what they do.

That's one of the most significant statements I've read about skating in a long time. The older I get, the more I realize that hard work is the one factor that has to go into every great skater's career. (And this applies not just to skaters, of course.)

The road to the podium is littered with the spent shadows of talented skaters who didn't put in the work, such as Nicole Bobek, Chistopher Bowman, Tonya Harding, and probably Fedor Andreev. Hardworking skaters with less talent or a less obliging body type must gnash their teeth at the sheer wastefulness. I bet Michelle, for all her prodigious talent, would have given a lot to have Mirai's back flexibility or Bobek's spring. (Fortunately, she was so gifted in other areas that these shortcomings became irrelevant. She did just fine without a Biellman spin.) And I likewise bet that Rachael, who seems to work like a dog, would just love to appropriate the casually used but more elegant body line of some less dedicated skater.

Spun Silver · Feb 1, 2011

R.D. said:
I don't see anything wrong or "immature" about that comment at all. If you already know exactly what you have to do to win, why even have a coach to begin with?

Because the will to improve and win has to come from within. The skater has to learn from the coach but it's not a passive relationship, or shouldn't be. Can you imagine Lance Armstrong or Serena Williams or for that matter Mao Asada saying that about any coach? (Well, Serena may have done as a child since her coaches were her parents, but now? Unthinkable.) Mao talks about correcting her mistakes. She owns the process.

Layfan · Feb 1, 2011

Spun Silver said:
Because the will to improve and win has to come from within. The skater has to learn from the coach but it's not a passive relationship, or shouldn't be. Can you imagine Lance Armstrong or Serena Williams or for that matter Mao Asada saying that about any coach? (Well, Serena may have done as a child since her coaches were her parents, but now? Unthinkable.) Mao talks about correcting her mistakes. She owns the process.

I agree that Mirai doesn't seem to own the process. Contrast that with Rachael, who left the GPF and demanded a new SP program from Lori.

I wonder how much Frank Caroll is open to skaters "owning the process" though, especially young ones.

Michelle Kwan said she was leaving Frank because she wanted "to take responsibility for her skating." Course that was probably rubbish and there were other reasons. Michelle seemed like she was pretty responsible for her skating with Frank. She certainly seemed to have her own style and voice, anyway.

Still, Frank is such a strict coach. I think that is what Mirai needs in a lot of ways _ and seemed to welcome last year _ but I wonder how many often Frank encourages his skaters to really think about what they want.

R.D. · Feb 1, 2011

Spun Silver said:
Because the will to improve and win has to come from within. The skater has to learn from the coach but it's not a passive relationship, or shouldn't be. Can you imagine Lance Armstrong or Serena Williams or for that matter Mao Asada saying that about any coach? (Well, Serena may have done as a child since her coaches were her parents, but now? Unthinkable.) Mao talks about correcting her mistakes. She owns the process.

ITA with the bolded part. Yes, it's up to the skater to figure out why she's in this, to figure out what her goals are. However, IMO the coach is there to provide the structure, the path, the framework for getting there. It is not enough to simply WANT to get to the top. You have to know HOW to get to the top. That is the role of the coach.

I see it this way- you could have all the drive, all the discipline in the world but if you're going about it the wrong way, you won't get very far. You need someone who KNOWS the process to guide you through it- and you have to TRUST and LISTEN TO that person. That's why I see little wrong with Nagasu's comment- she knows she has to listen to her coach because she TRUSTS her coach to guide her where she wants to go. The coach builds the bridge but the skater still has to cross it to get to the other side.

Layfan · Feb 1, 2011

Let's hope Mirai still trusts Frank after he trashed her to Phil Hersh.

Violet Bliss · Feb 1, 2011

A skater's success is a process and a team work. Mirai hasn't blamed anyone for her disappointments but the grouchy old coach has been dumping on his young and most talented student publicly and repeatedly. It's unprofessional, self demeaning and an unwillingness to examine his part of the responsibilities. Different persons need different motivations. An experienced coach should know better than just demand, scold, and berate publicly.

eta. Being talented with demonstrated ability carries expectation, pressure, and disappointments, by the skater herself, her coach and the fans. It's no use faulting Mirai for being lazy, undisciplined, etc. It's not that she doesn't care. It's exactly because she cares too much that her nerves undermine her performances, especially after leading in the SP. Her problem is mental and she needs help in that aspect. Castigation is not a solution. Carroll seems to be lacking in that department and is exasperated instead of seeking outside help.

pangtongfan · Feb 1, 2011

Layfan said:
Sasha I guess didn't have the most secure jumping tecnique but even so she managed to put out a lot of awesome programs.

I think when Mirai wins two world silvers, an Olympic silver, world bronze and a GPF final, we can start comparing her to Sasha.

Then again, Sasha hadn't done any of those things when she was 17. I see that as a postitive thing - there is still time for Mirai! Go Mirai! Don't give up.

Sasha peaked in the weakest quad of women skaters ever from 2003-2006. She faced aging past their prime champions with serious health problems (Slutskaya and Kwan), unproven and erratic youngster (Ando and Kostner), second tier pretenders (Suguri), and one huge surprise (Arakawa). That accounts for her large medal haul which she never would have had with her technical issues in the 2007-2010 quad. Nagasu skated better to come 4th at the Olympics than Sasha probably ever has in her life, Sasha has definitely never done a pair of performances that would have medalled in Vancouver. Yet even in that weak and open quad she failed to win a single major title, and her only U.S title was with Kwan absent. A quad that should have been wide open for her to dominate and win everything in.

fairly4 · Feb 1, 2011

mirai-is responsible for her skating in competition, frank can't go out and evan can't go out and hold her hand. mirai is responsible for her practice, by that i mean when and if she practices on ice.
if she goes and plays around. than expects do well at competition it isn't franks's fault . it is her own.
i am tired of people giving mirai excuses. A coach job it to help her do things right. he/she can't force a person to practice. if the athlete wants to practice and do well it is their own responsiblity. for me-Frank seems to be to lenient with mirai, it seems she has her way with him.
how she won nationals without him, she won things by the short, the cop is giving skaters much more input into their own ways,(pluses and minuses of their skating) so the skaters themselves choose which way they are going to practice and skate, by improving the minuses or improving their pluses. i hear skaters telling coaches what to do more and if they want the money the coaches have to go along with it.
mirai seems like chris bowman the showman, (a good skater) but doesn't want to work for it.
past results has expectation of can do it by myself-no help from coach i know what i need to do to get ahead with a coach-all i need is a chorographer. sorry i am blunt, but it seems to me she wants to medals without the work.

Layfan · Feb 1, 2011

fairly4 said:
mirai-is responsible for her skating in competition, frank can't go out and evan can't go out and hold her hand. mirai is responsible for her practice, by that i mean when and if she practices on ice.
if she goes and plays around. than expects do well at competition it isn't franks's fault . it is her own.
i am tired of people giving mirai excuses. A coach job it to help her do things right. he/she can't force a person to practice. if the athlete wants to practice and do well it is their own responsiblity. for me-Frank seems to be to lenient with mirai, it seems she has her way with him.
how she won nationals without him, she won things by the short, the cop is giving skaters much more input into their own ways,(pluses and minuses of their skating) so the skaters themselves choose which way they are going to practice and skate, by improving the minuses or improving their pluses. i hear skaters telling coaches what to do more and if they want the money the coaches have to go along with it.
mirai seems like chris bowman the showman, (a good skater) but doesn't want to work for it.
past results has expectation of can do it by myself-no help from coach i know what i need to do to get ahead with a coach-all i need is a chorographer. sorry i am blunt, but it seems to me she wants to medals without the work.

Fairly, you may be right and Mirai may not practice diligently enough for Frank's tastes. There must be some truth to Frank's words.

However, to reiterate, the issue is not whether Frank should be frustrated with Mirai and hard on her. My problem is that there was no need to go on about it in such a rude way to a reporter, who has nothing to do with Mirai's training

All you people who are insisting that Mirai is lazy I would like to know what you think about Frank's indiscreet interview with Phil Hersh since that is the issue most of us are raising.

P.S. If you'll allow me blunt, the comparison to Christopher Bowman is incredibly unfair and a little tasteless. Christopher Bowman had cocaine habit even when he was competing and he tragically died at a young age. Whatever training habits Mirai might have she doesn't deserve that comparison.

Ginask8s · Feb 1, 2011

Can you link the Hersh interview.

Mathman · Feb 1, 2011

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com...lympics-czisny-flatt-nagasu-who-makes-it.html

The funny thing is how quickly Hersh turned on his own favorite (Mirai) after one bad skate. All last year he was on a Rachael-bashing rampage, using Mirai as his cudgel.

(PS. Disable javascript if you don't want to wait for all the ads to load.

)

Olympia · Feb 1, 2011

Layfan said:
Fairly, you may be right and Mirai may not practice diligently enough for Frank's tastes. There must be some truth to Frank's words.

However, to reiterate, the issue is not whether Frank should be frustrated with Mirai and hard on her. My problem is that there was no need to go on about it in such a rude way to a reporter, who has nothing to do with Mirai's training

All you people who are insisting that Mirai is lazy I would like to know what you think about Frank's indiscreet interview with Phil Hersh since that is the issue most of us are raising.

P.S. If you'll allow me blunt, the comparison to Christopher Bowman is incredibly unfair and a little tasteless. Christopher Bowman had cocaine habit even when he was competing and he tragically died at a young age. Whatever training habits Mirai might have she doesn't deserve that comparison.

My general principle is that adults should always think very carefully before publicly castigating a youngster. The adult, especially a parent or someone in authority, has an unfair advantage. Carroll could have kept things to himself.

By the way, I haven't looked back to see if anyone but me mentioned Bowman on this thread, but I'll address what I said. I apologize to all and sundry, including Mirai, if anyone inferred that I was comparing Mirai to Bowman. Perish the thought! I was just running through my mind the list of hugely talented skaters who didn't seem to be able to harness the talent. And since Bowman was coincidentally a student of Carroll's, he came to mind. But remember, when he was actually skating with Carroll, he hadn't plunged to the bottom of the pit. He was a young boy with giant but undisciplined talent. That is the stage of his life I was thinking of when I made my comment. Nonetheless, if I caused any offense, I apologize.

Mrs. P · Feb 1, 2011

Mathman said:
http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com...lympics-czisny-flatt-nagasu-who-makes-it.html

The funny thing is how quickly Hersh turned on his own favorite (Mirai) after one bad skate. All last year he was on a Rachael-bashing rampage, using Mirai as his cudgel.

(PS. Disable javascript if you don't want to wait for all the ads to load. )

Everyone has dealt with the wrath of Phil. The only one that hasn't, at least from what I read last year, was Sasha. His eagerness for her comeback was just a bit much at times.

He totally cut her some slack when she finished fourth after that lackluster FS.

http://newsblogs.chicagotribune.com...-rolled-her-eyes-when-i-told-her-spokane.html

Mathman · Feb 1, 2011

^ Hersh was invested in Sasha's comeback. Hersh got a couple of scoops early in the year from Sasha herself and he was the first to publish a big story about it.

When everyone else said, yeah, sure, Sasha's coming back, right, Hersh was kind of out on a limb. Then when Sasha really did come back, Hersh was a news-hound hero in his own mind for being right! :laugh:

Mrs. P · Feb 1, 2011

Mathman said:
^ Hersh was invested in Sasha's comeback. Hersh got a couple of scoops early in the year from Sasha herself and he was the first to publish a big story about it.

When everyone else said, yeah, sure, Sasha's coming back, right, Hersh was kind of out on a limb. Then when Sasha really did come back, Hersh was a news-hound hero in his own mind for being right!

But you do see the irony of Sasha's fourth place being "well-deserved" and Mirai's bronze being an indication of being "undisciplined?"

Layfan · Feb 2, 2011

Olympia said:
My general principle is that adults should always think very carefully before publicly castigating a youngster. The adult, especially a parent or someone in authority, has an unfair advantage. Carroll could have kept things to himself.

By the way, I haven't looked back to see if anyone but me mentioned Bowman on this thread, but I'll address what I said. I apologize to all and sundry, including Mirai, if anyone inferred that I was comparing Mirai to Bowman. Perish the thought! I was just running through my mind the list of hugely talented skaters who didn't seem to be able to harness the talent. And since Bowman was coincidentally a student of Carroll's, he came to mind. But remember, when he was actually skating with Carroll, he hadn't plunged to the bottom of the pit. He was a young boy with giant but undisciplined talent. That is the stage of his life I was thinking of when I made my comment. Nonetheless, if I caused any offense, I apologize.

Oh Olympia, no. I didn't even know that you had mentioned Bowman. I was responding to fairly 4. Actually, now I remember that you did make that list but I was responding to someone else's comment that Mirai reminded them of Christopher Bowman. The way you said it was totally different.

Layfan · Feb 2, 2011

pangtongfan said:
Sasha peaked in the weakest quad of women skaters ever from 2003-2006. She faced aging past their prime champions with serious health problems (Slutskaya and Kwan), unproven and erratic youngster (Ando and Kostner), second tier pretenders (Suguri), and one huge surprise (Arakawa). That accounts for her large medal haul which she never would have had with her technical issues in the 2007-2010 quad. Nagasu skated better to come 4th at the Olympics than Sasha probably ever has in her life, Sasha has definitely never done a pair of performances that would have medalled in Vancouver. Yet even in that weak and open quad she failed to win a single major title, and her only U.S title was with Kwan absent. A quad that should have been wide open for her to dominate and win everything in.

Whatever you say. After placing 4th at her first Olympics, Sasha placed 4th at her first worlds. She never placed lower than that a worlds or an Olympics I hope Mirai has a career as amazing as that. I hope any of the U.S. ladies currently skating live up to that.

Ladies FS

Layfan

ivy

Layfan

Olympia

Spun Silver

Layfan

R.D.

Layfan

Violet Bliss

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

fairly4

Layfan

Ginask8s

Mathman

Olympia

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Mathman

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Layfan

Layfan

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