Coaches berating their skaters in Kiss N Cry
- Thread starter Johar
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- Oct 31, 2004
lmao!!!
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- Dec 16, 2006
Like Nadine said, they were held up by the judges. Skaters found out the final result after the accountant posted the results.
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- Aug 26, 2010
I didn't mean his manner in the kiss and cry per se had something to do with their break up. What I meant was that he could have a tendency of giving "silent" treatment when he was angry, upset or uncomfortable as reflected by the way he treated Adam in the kiss and cry. Such ignorance or "neglect" could be emotionally disturbing from the perspective of the receivers. Didn't Yuna complain that she was somehow neglected? I don't know Brian Orser in person. Maybe I read too much from only a few incidents.
Afterward, about Chris Bowman, I thought of that moment as the time he started to slide down to destruction. Of course I know it wasn't that simple or obvious.
Yeah, there are moments in the Kiss and Cry when I just get up and leave the TV. I can't stand the tight close-ups on moments of extreme distress that we so often see. The one that's burned in my mind is Nancy Kerrigan in 1993, when her time was supposed to be here. She had won the Olympic bronze behind Kristi in 1992, and Kristi had retired, so Nancy was the next in line to win Worlds. She completely fell apart and came in fifth, and then that poor girl had to sit there and wait for her marks and hear them read out; and remember in those days, there was a whole row of marks for technical and then another whole row for artistic--often announced in two languages. Drat, that was merciless.
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- Feb 5, 2004
Check out Frank's 'tache!!
I think those are all giant leaps of interpretation, the first being that being silent with Rippon in the KnC is somehow negative and then extrapolating that maybe that's a reason for the troubles with Yuna when things like that never happened in the KnC with her
Abuse, neglect, those are both very strong words and IMO not based in reality.
Ant
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- Joined
- Jun 27, 2003
It could also be that Brian doesn't want to speak out of turn. If he calms down first before they discuss what went wrong, he's not going Frank Carrol or worse on his skater(s).
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- Mar 19, 2006
I also think this is a great topic of conversation as well. Particularly Frank, aside from a fantastic record and knowledge it seems he is a little hot headed and does not have the ability to balance his emotions (or let his skaters) - as well he seems to creating the same female skater over and over with no regard for actual personality. Particularly when he is not a coach of a skater before they hit the public eye. If he takes over a skater they have a tendency to seem like a clone of who ever else was before them. I think Yuka is the best example "new" coach there is and her standard is real and encompasses the ability to be strict AND (what is it all about ) enjoyment in accomplishing a title. This goose stepping cold war attitude should hit the history books i.m.o.
I do think being tough has a time and place, but some of these "people" are forgetting there is a time and place - decorum.
Athletics is about HUMAN BEINGS.
j.m.o of course but even with Even he seemed to become Sasha in a lot of his mannerisms. Not that this is a 100% bad thing however balance is better. If he could let some love an happyness show genuine on the ice I think the performances and marks would be better. Masks are fine but I would rather see a real face.
It is almost as though this is a change as I look back - or is it the skaters interpretation? His skaters of 5+ years ago seemed to exhibit that genuine quality so much better.
I do think being tough has a time and place, but some of these "people" are forgetting there is a time and place - decorum.
Athletics is about HUMAN BEINGS.
j.m.o of course but even with Even he seemed to become Sasha in a lot of his mannerisms. Not that this is a 100% bad thing however balance is better. If he could let some love an happyness show genuine on the ice I think the performances and marks would be better. Masks are fine but I would rather see a real face.
It is almost as though this is a change as I look back - or is it the skaters interpretation? His skaters of 5+ years ago seemed to exhibit that genuine quality so much better.
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After watching the full K&Cs of Adam and Brian at Nats I think there's not a big problem. Maybe Brian is right just calming down after the SP (I remember him saying something "we have to work hard tomorrow" or something like that), and he was definitely happy after the LP. Do you remember Adam's SP last year at Nats? maybe Brian wasn't this time as supportive as that time, but at least he wasn't publicly blaming him
That's the way I interpreted it.
I'm sure most coaches are pretty competitive people too. And we're not robots, and sometimes emotions get the best of us, but experienced coaches should be able to keep it together in the KnC.
I just don't see how being angry or upset when your skater gets off the ice is constructive. If anything it would make me more nervous as a skater if I made a mistake and knew I was going get a upset comment from my coach soon after I got off the ice. More nervous - another mistake, even more nervous, yet another mistake. That's a train heading in the wrong direction. I'm sure skaters and their coaches watch the performances dozens of times after a competition - save the criticism till then. I wonder if it's partly generational, and younger coaches will be less likely to act out - though maybe still be sulky (a la Orser). I think of John Nick's as being a bit snappy sometimes, but maybe I'm remembering wrong?
It also seems partly cultural, what the audience and the skater will accept. Do Japanese coaches have mini tantrums in the KnC?
I just don't see how being angry or upset when your skater gets off the ice is constructive. If anything it would make me more nervous as a skater if I made a mistake and knew I was going get a upset comment from my coach soon after I got off the ice. More nervous - another mistake, even more nervous, yet another mistake. That's a train heading in the wrong direction. I'm sure skaters and their coaches watch the performances dozens of times after a competition - save the criticism till then. I wonder if it's partly generational, and younger coaches will be less likely to act out - though maybe still be sulky (a la Orser). I think of John Nick's as being a bit snappy sometimes, but maybe I'm remembering wrong?
It also seems partly cultural, what the audience and the skater will accept. Do Japanese coaches have mini tantrums in the KnC?
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- Feb 5, 2004
I don't see the "creating the same female skater" assuming you mean he's trying to create replica Kwan's, I don't see that in Mirai and I certainly don't see that in Kostner (is she still with Frank?)
Just checking but did you mean to write Evan (as in Lysacek?) because while he was coached by Frank, Sasha never was - she was coached by John Nicks!
Ant
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- Oct 22, 2005
Whether the mistakes snowball or not has little to do with the coach's demeanor post skate and has everything to do with a skater's preparedness and their ability to stay focused and in the moment of the performance, even after a mistake. This goes back to mental toughness and competitive fire. If the skater is focused back on the booboo, they will make another and so on, there's no time to think that "coach X is going to be angry when I get done since I missed the Y".
How a coach reacts post skate really has more to do with their personality and not what generation they are from. Most coaches try and keep it positive right after the skate since most skaters come off focused on their errors (even if they aren't noticeable). Sometimes that's just not possible.
Overall I agree with that, the individual it the most deciding factor, but the way adults are interacting with youth is changing. I was brought up in a time when children were meant to be seen and not heard. Most people in the US wouldn't accept that premise now.
ETA - also I agree that most coaches, most of the time, do great job keeping their emotions in check - probably better then I would - this threads seems to be about those times they don't
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- Mar 19, 2006
Skaters in the "past 5+ years there about. Sasha was just a good well known example that on the ice does not seems as "approachable" as when she is off it. This to has changed now that I have seen her professional performances, she is better than she was i.m.o. At the same time I admire her / them. I feel there are personalities ON ICE being coached by him that do not have a "ring of genuine" as others. Some skaters / people seem to be more subjective to this than others - more cause AND effect. Not 100% of them though.
Really the more I have thought about this it seems hypocritical to ask a skater to contain their emotions (no crying) and not be able to themselves. Miria to me has changed severily where the cute personality is forced rather than the way it used to feel. Again my interpretation. It could just be her growing up or I am completely wrong, but I do see this in others of his - NOT MK (I thought I designated her as a difference rather than a current or one who has switched to him)she was with him from her "beginnings" and some of the actions I know she took were she did what she wanted regardless. That is one of the things that separates her from others that use him. Or better said, he could not form MK as much as she formed herself and used him, others he is coaching are more prone to be formed by him rather than use him so it APPEARS to me. ~ Carolina is an exception to this as I can tell but there are "others" who do not seem to be. ~ reideration "others" meaning not all but seems to be. And Carolina is now with Michael Huth as far as I know.
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- Mar 19, 2006
Agreed, not sure if I am the reason Mirai got compared to MK, but I thought I was clear when I said "before they hit the public eye" as MK was with him as she gained a popularity status. This would be exclusive in my comment to ones who switched to him. Otherwise I could not state there is a difference because there would be nothing to compare it to.
Sorry I was not more clear if this is due to my comment.
e.t.ask, how people feel about Yuka as a coach in comparison, who had no notable interaction with Carol. And I would also like to know more about John and Silvia if anyone knows.
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Well I just wanted to post a comment in support of Frank Carroll, whom seems to be getting run over, lol, seriously I like his coaching style, as I do John Nicks, Tom Z., Priscilla Hill, et al. The only one that makes me feel a tad uncomfortable is Galina Zmievskaya, but that's because I saw the way that she was on Johnny's reality show last year. Mayhap my mind would change as well if I saw the coaching styles of the aforementioned previous coaches on a reality show too.
But back to Mr. Carroll, he's known to have taught in the same manner he himself was taught from the great Maribel Vinson Owen (9-time US National Champion in Singles, 6-time US National Champion in Pairs, 2-time World Medalist, and the 1932 Olympic Bronze Medalist in Ladies Singles). And I honestly see nothing wrong with it. It's all about respect, something that seems to be lacking in each successive generation, nowadays one reads about how elders are being abused on a daily basis, plastered all over the media is everything targeted toward youth, age is something seen as ugly/to be avoided at all costs.
Anyhow, that's how I see it, irregardless of what happened in the K&C. Lol, what they should have a reality show about is the induction/training into the United States Army. If you think the K&C is bad, that ain't nothing compared to the former!
But back to Mr. Carroll, he's known to have taught in the same manner he himself was taught from the great Maribel Vinson Owen (9-time US National Champion in Singles, 6-time US National Champion in Pairs, 2-time World Medalist, and the 1932 Olympic Bronze Medalist in Ladies Singles). And I honestly see nothing wrong with it. It's all about respect, something that seems to be lacking in each successive generation, nowadays one reads about how elders are being abused on a daily basis, plastered all over the media is everything targeted toward youth, age is something seen as ugly/to be avoided at all costs.
Anyhow, that's how I see it, irregardless of what happened in the K&C. Lol, what they should have a reality show about is the induction/training into the United States Army. If you think the K&C is bad, that ain't nothing compared to the former!
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- Mar 19, 2006
Surprised at the comparison of the Army and FS ...wow? However I 'spose that I could make the comment to my daughter, "you think that paper cut hurts try getting your arm chopped off." ??? relevant? Due to the "root of relevant" I would have to say it is not. Relevant derives from having a comparable experience.Well I just wanted to post a comment in support of Frank Carroll, whom seems to be getting run over, lol, seriously I like his coaching style, as I do John Nicks, Tom Z., Priscilla Hill, et al. The only one that makes me feel a tad uncomfortable is Galina Zmievskaya, but that's because I saw the way that she was on Johnny's reality show last year. Mayhap my mind would change as well if I saw the coaching styles of the aforementioned previous coaches on a reality show too.
But back to Mr. Carroll, he's known to have taught in the same manner he himself was taught from the great Maribel Vinson Owen (9-time US National Champion in Singles, 6-time US National Champion in Pairs, 2-time World Medalist, and the 1932 Olympic Bronze Medalist in Ladies Singles). And I honestly see nothing wrong with it. It's all about respect, something that seems to be lacking in each successive generation, nowadays one reads about how elders are being abused on a daily basis, plastered all over the media is everything targeted toward youth, age is something seen as ugly/to be avoided at all costs.
Anyhow, that's how I see it, irregardless of what happened in the K&C. Lol, what they should have a reality show about is the induction/training into the United States Army. If you think the K&C is bad, that ain't nothing compared to the former!
Frank is good but he might be loosing it so to speak. Respect is something that can be lost do to the effect of said actions that coincidentally come from a result of those actions. I told my mom to stop driving no matter how well she "knew" how her ability was not there to due so late in her life. Shared society.
Karma of a Generation might be an attempt to place the blame for this on the new generation which is a product of the prior generation, so ... that is the result. I also agree there is a lack of respect yet I do not hold persons who are younger than say 20 responsible for providing the correct guidance to themselves. It is not as though they can look back and say, "wow that worked so well for the last generation we should do it too." Contrary in life yet very relevant to sports. Inadvertently it would also be safe to say this is why I also had disregard for the prior generations activities and choose not to listen to them either but did want to skate like Curry, Cousins or Santi. Taking this into consideration it is a wonder how a young skater can be influenced by anything other than the other skaters close to their generation opposed to the coach themselves and what they accomplished. Normal most coaches do not have as exemplary record in their own trophy cabinet as the skaters who achieve a greater. Common and logical.
It was disrespectful for a "BIG NAME NOW" skater to go and sign up for a division when her coach told her not to but this action had great benefit for her.
Inspiration, example and encouragement should accompany youth REALISTICALLY AND DECOROUSLY. And however the notion that there are no losers came along is also devoid of good reason. SO there is a good point of why, because neither one is practiced with balance and respect. Frank's feelings are totally valid, yet the action that come from said feelings are detrimental and counterproductive to his desire. Humans are evolving. If this is a sport that has "presentation" as an definitive factor than that needs to be practiced by the coach as well. I think there needs to be some responsibility of the coach when the skater fails to live up to expectations - "it takes a village" ya know.
Respect has to be maintained. Likely this is a event that Frank will learn from or feel the wrong time or place. Yet he could also just not care what anyone thinks ( funny that my generation was taught this stupid ideology after the age of 10 in a SHARED planet) and just keep loosing respect.
And *bow* to his accomplishments but it is a little late to be conforming FS into the world of the military.
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