Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

oleada · Feb 14, 2011

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/spor...4-china-figure-skaters-ages-in-question_N.htm
From AP
The ISU is investigating 9 Chinese skaters for having been too old or two young for competition.

oleada · Feb 14, 2011

The article mentions the following skaters as having possible fake birthdays:
Sui/Han
Zhang/Zhang
Yu/Jin
Bingwa Geng
Binshu Xu
Yu Gao

As well as quotes from the ISU and the IOC (can't quote as on my phone)

Tonichelle · Feb 14, 2011

you beat me to it. This will be interesting to watch... if it doesn't just get shoved to the back burner.

ayayukiituka · Feb 14, 2011

i think this news's interesting,too. but i have feeling at the same time that china uses another calender that is known for chinese new year. if the skaters on the list report their birthday on its unique one,this could happen. i don't think their age don't be affected though.

bsfan · Feb 14, 2011

Even people born in 1950's wouldn't use chinese calender to record their age. Furthermore, Chinese calender use name and animal sign, not numerice number. The date mapping from Chinese calender to western is always one to one.

Figure skating is not track and field where you can find kids from humble families (and I highly doubt even these families only remember their kids' dob on Lunar). I won't be surprised if these skaters don't know their Lunar dob.

oleada · Feb 14, 2011

There was some discussion about that in the 4CC forum, but I doubt that's the case. Not for legal/bureaucratic matters anyway. In any case, that wouldn't account for discrepancies of over 2 years.

There is a thread in this forum about Bingwa Geng from January 2008 in which it was thought by many posters that she was too young to compete internationally...but she showed up at 2008 ;unior 1orlds anyway. There are psosts at Chinese forums saying her age is younger than stated. I've heard rumors about Xu and Hao Zhang for years, and there are articles that give Xu's age as younger than stated in her ISU bio.

My fear is that nothing can be proved because the fed will produce fake back up documents like the 2008 gymnasts

bsfan · Feb 14, 2011

"My fear is that nothing can be proved because the fed will produce fake back up documents like the 2008 gymnasts "

It will likely be the result. They can change every records one can think of.

But girls in general don't like to be presented older. Maybe years later one of them may want her real dob back.

clairecloutier · Feb 14, 2011

Interesting. When I saw Sui/Han compete this year, I said to my husband: "There is no way that girl is 15. She looks more like 12." And now, here we are, finding out she is indeed probably only 13. If this is true, I definitely hope the ISU steps in and strips them of their senior Grand Prix medals this year. I don't mean to be harsh, but the age limits are in place for a reason.

feraina · Feb 14, 2011

bsfan said:
Even people born in 1950's wouldn't use chinese calender to record their age.

My mom was born in the 1950's, and she only remembers her DOB on the Chinese calendar -- I mean, she knows what her Gregorian calendar DOB is, or at least can always look it up, but she celebrates her Chinese birthdate, which is on a different Gregorian calendar date every year. She also wishes me happy birthday on each Chinese New Year, which freaks me out, because I was born in December, and so turned "2" at the next new year when I was 1-month-old -- that was kinda cool when I was young, but not so much now!

But anyway, these figure skaters born in the 80's and 90's should all know their Gregorian calendar DOB. That is what gets entered into all the ID cards, school records, and other official documents.

Olympia · Feb 14, 2011

China pulled this trick with gymnastics, also. The is how the U.S. team got a bronze medal for the 2000 Olympics in 2010 or so--China's third-place finish was invalidated. I feel bad for the Chinese skaters themselves: they're just doing what they're told. I feel bad for their competitors, too, who are unfairly disadvantaged when they play by the rules.

And it's all so pointless. Look at Shen and Zhao: they're so spectacular, in part because they're artistically mature and have developed their talents over time. They were nowhere this amazing in 2002. Skating isn't a jumping contest anymore, and real national pride should come from unique artistic and athletic contributions, not from well-trained babies who will be too injured to compete by the time they are age-eligible at fifteen.

bsfan · Feb 14, 2011

"My mom was born in the 1950's, and she only remembers her DOB on the Chinese calendar -- I mean, she knows what her Gregorian calendar DOB is, or at least can always look it up, but she celebrates her Chinese birthdate, which is on a different Gregorian calendar date every year."

What I said was about dob on record, like birth certificate etc. I don't think your mom would change the your birth year, even though she celebrates your chinese age.

My gradma was born in 1930's in the year of Mouse. When they did registration in 1950's, she (or maybe others) mis-calculated and made her birth year as 1937. She didn't know it till we pointed out. But, she has always told people she was born in the year of mouse and it was 1937 if asked which year.

Even there is mis-calculation, people won't mess up the animal zodiac.

Chemistry66 · Feb 15, 2011

The controversy actually made the front page on Yahoo. A summary post of it in the Yahoo Sports blog was linked to on the "Today" area where you can scroll through recent news.

aftertherain · Feb 15, 2011

^The aforementioned news article:

http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/blog/fourth_place_medal/post/D-j-vu-China-accused-of-altering-athlete-s-bir?urn=oly-321298

The Associated Press writes:

According to ISU rules, skaters must be 15 by the preceding July 1 to compete at an Olympics or senior world championships, and 14 for other senior-level international competitions, such as the Grand Prix final. Junior skaters must be at least 13 the previous July 1 but cannot have turned 19 (singles) or 21 (pairs and ice dancers).

According to the records found by the AP on the federation website, Zhang Dan was born Oct. 4, 1987, meaning she would have been only 14 when she and Zhang Hao - no relation - competed at the 2002 Olympics and world championships. The Zhangs were 11th in Salt Lake City and ninth at worlds.

Zhang Hao, meanwhile, was born on Feb. 6, 1982, according to his birthdate on the federation website. That would have made him too old to compete at the 2003 junior world championships, which they won.

smia · Feb 15, 2011

In the long-term I don't believe this really benefits the Chinese skaters, especially pairing little girls with men eight years older like Sui/Han and the JGF bronze medalists Yu/Jin. Sure it might work in the short-term but the girls are likely to outgrow them, if their careers aren't ended prematurely by doing quads at such a young age! And the difference in maturity level between such pairings is more than a little off-putting.

But I feel most sorry for Mao Asada, Mirai Nagasu, Adelina Sotnikova, and all the other skaters who've respected the rules. If the ISU insists on rules that result in a skater missing the Olympics by 87 days, or the World Championships by one day, they need to crack down on what China is doing but it'll be impossible to prove since they can just print off passports with the desired age.

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 15, 2011

To give you an idea of how deep this affects things, using Sui/Han as the example (if true, of course, but I believe it to be so).

1. S/H won world juniors. Had they not been there, the podium would've been Takahashi/Tran, Kilmov/Stoblova, and Novik/Kutsenov

2. The Chinese pairs team of Yu/Jin competed at World Juniors. However, they were that mythical third team that shouldn't have been sent and consequently saw their scores/placement cancelled out. Had Sui/Han not been there, they would've seen their points rightfully given.

3. The top three nations for JGP spots were China, Japan and Russia. Without Sui/Han, they would be Japan, Russia and the United States.

4. Going further back, the medals they won on the senior GP circuit are all invalidated.

5. Going further back, the medals they won on the junior GP circuit for the past TWO seasons are invalidated. They robbed Jones/Gaskell a chance to go to the JGPF in 09/10, and Takahashi/Tran or Yankowskas/Coughlin to the senior GPF this year.

Olympia · Feb 15, 2011

smia said:
In the long-term I don't believe this really benefits the Chinese skaters, especially pairing little girls with men eight years older like Sui/Han and the JGF bronze medalists Yu/Jin. Sure it might work in the short-term but the girls are likely to outgrow them, if their careers aren't ended prematurely by doing quads at such a young age! And the difference in maturity level between such pairings is more than a little off-putting.

But I feel most sorry for Mao Asada, Mirai Nagasu, Adelina Sotnikova, and all the other skaters who've respected the rules. If the ISU insists on rules that result in a skater missing the Olympics by 87 days, or the World Championships by one day, they need to crack down on what China is doing but it'll be impossible to prove since they can just print off passports with the desired age.

Those two points were exactly what were on my mind. For goodness' sake, was any thirteen-year-old Chinese girl half as talented as Mao Asada? Yet Mao stayed home from Torino, and maybe some poor underage kid was hustled there--and was probably incapacitated by injuries by the time of the Vancouver Olympics, where she could have done well. (I'm speaking in theory about that Olympics, not about a specific Chinese child, but you get the idea.)

People like Asada, Nagasu, and Sotnikova are going to be great whenever they get a chance to show it. But the longterm damage to Chinese skaters won't be undone. Children too young for that kind of heavy training (for one thing, senior programs are longer in duration than junior ones) are being physically damaged. Maybe they would have been really great skaters, but we'll never know. In pairs skating, girls partnered with men can't possibly develop any kind of genuine skating connection. What is it we react to when we see Shen and Zhao? It's their chemistry together. Can you imagine some linebacker-size male skater conveying that bond with a twelve-year-old he's throwing into a quintuple toe jump? A skate to music becomes merely an exhibition of child cruelty. They might get high grades for the throws, but if I were a judge, I wouldn't award high PC's for such a performance.

Violet Bliss · Feb 15, 2011

As far as injury prevention is concerned, ISU only imposes age limits for competition, not on training.

wallylutz · Feb 15, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
As far as injury prevention is concerned, ISU only imposes age limits for competition, not on training.

However, if you can't compete as a team, why would you want to train together in Pair skating, it makes no sense.

BackStage Barbie · Feb 15, 2011

Some teams train for quite a while together before they are eligible for International competitions. When Keauna McLaughlin and Rockne Brubaker teamed up, she was too young for the senior circuit but he was too old for the junior circuit so they trained without having the chance to compete at worlds.

Violet Bliss · Feb 15, 2011

wallylutz said:
However, if you can't compete as a team, why would you want to train together in Pair skating, it makes no sense.

Whatever the discipline, skaters train years, often since childhood, before competing in Junior and Senior levels. Assada, Nagasu and Sotnikova didn't sit around for a year when they weren't eligible that year.

Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

oleada

oleada

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

ayayukiituka

bsfan

oleada

bsfan

clairecloutier

feraina

Olympia

bsfan

Chemistry66

Mmmmm, tacos.

aftertherain

smia

ImaginaryPogue

Olympia

Violet Bliss

wallylutz

BackStage Barbie

Violet Bliss

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