Chinese Skaters' Age In Question | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

feraina

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 3, 2007
As for the Chinese sports apparatus, they would do well to start cleaning house in the Skating Federation. I see this last bit as a distinct possibility this year, with or without ISU sanctions, as this has become a national embarrassment in sporting circles.

You are contradicting yourself. First you said there's nothing happening at the grass roots level in China, and now you say in fact it's becoming a national embarrassment in the sports circles and that's going to lead to change -- how can this causal conclusion be drawn if you don't think grassroot sentiment "in sports circles" at least matter somewhat?

Secondly, I didn't say that changes have to happen slowly. I said changes will happen slowly if you only punish the athletes and allow the federation officials to wiggle out of blame. And I can see this happening if ISU only issued some terse statement that said there was age falsification and here's the punishment -- the Chinese skating federation officials will either blame some low-level clerk or the athletes themselves, but never take responsibilities for it themselves; they might even punish the athletes directly, remove them from the national team or whatever, to show that they are "firmly against age falsification" and thus decrease public pressure on themselves. Instead, I think ISU should really stand up to the political pressure and issue a statement that really place the blame where blame lies, which is that there has been systematic fraud, falsification, and pressure on athletes from the bureaucratic officials from a top, central level. They don't even have to specifically punish the officials, they just have to be brave enough to point their fingers. As several mentioned already, "face" is such a big deal in Chinese culture. If there is public shaming of the officials, so that they're losing face for the Chinese sports federation, for sure some officials will get replaced/demoted, and the rest will think twice in the future before pressuring young athletes to change their age.

ETA: As for fairness to other athletes and federations, let's look at precedence. In the 2002 SLC Olympics, when it was determined that there was cheating going on at the judging level, a second gold medal was awarded, but the original gold was not taken away from the Russian couple. Why? Because people felt the athletes were not at fault, even if with the exact same skates, had there not been the judging scandal, the Russian couple really only "earned" the silver medal. By the same logic, if ISU determines that it is really the federation officials' fault, and not individual athletes' fault, then maybe their medals shouldn't be taken away either, but rather to reward the other athletes who should have been rewarded with a medal, or a differently colored medal. And what happened to the judges found guilty, by the way? They were suspended, but other judges from their federations were not, even though the cheating was happening at some systematic level, with implications at the federation level. And some of that may be for a good reason, because maybe there were upright judges who maybe specifically resisted cheating in a corrupt federation, and you don't want to punish them in a blanket punishment.

Of course, there are other precedences, with somewhat different outcomes. Last year, for example, the third Chinese pairs team at JW was simply deleted from the results, and the rankings reassigned. And I'm sure others can name even more precedents than me, but I think it's clear that there has been quite a bit of variability in outcome/resolution/punishment. The older precedents, where entire teams were banned for years, also tended to be against nations in the Eastern Bloc during the cold war, and I say it'd be naive to say that politics didn't play at least somewhat into those decisions. Well, cold war is over, maybe we should make an effort not to think with that mentality anymore. China is not the enemy. Chinese people are not all evil and aliens who are so different from us, that we can't relate to their goals or feelings. The administration might be corrupt at many different levels, but the athletes are just hard-working young people like all of us, wanting a better life for themselves, wanting fair play, but are constrained by their life circumstances into a much poorer set of options than what's available to American athletes and their families.

Some of these posts make me feel like there's a tendency to make cultural oversimplification, to characterize all Chinese people as possessing certain qualities -- e.g. they just like to cheat, they think cheating is okay -- and the danger of this is (1) it makes you want to think of ordinary Chinese people just as this alien, dehumanized species with whom you cannot and need not empathize, and (2) that because
it's a fundamental problem with Chinese culture, it justifies ISU meting out punishment as broadly as possible, in order to change the entire culture. But really, it is very specific, powerful people in charge who are guilty of most of this. And the Chinese skating forums are actively debating all of this, and almost everyone expressing disdain and shame at the federation's behavior, and sympathy for the athletes. Very few people post that cheating is okay and should be condoned. I can't remember reading any that said that the federation should continue to cheat, but just do it better. In contrast, I see almost a universal sentiment that there needs to be a broad change at the administrative level, and the incentive system should be altered at the bureaucratic level to hold these administrators responsible for misconduct.

"Evil" people exist in every culture, just as good people do. But when the political system is such that the people without scruples most easily get into positions of power, and can only remain there by cheating and corruption, then you will have an over-representation of such people at the top decision-making levels. Doesn't mean the whole country of 1.3 people all lack principles and honesty. I actually partly brought up the financial crisis analogy, not because it's the same issue (obviously it's very different at very many levels), but for Americans and westerners to be able to appreciate what it might feel like in the shoes of ordinary Chinese athletes and their families who will receive the punishment. The point is that U.S. taxpayers/voters shouldn't have to pay to rescue the big banks and pay back the big bosses' bonuses, essentially, even though indirectly they are responsible for electing their government leaders. Nor anymore do Americans deserve the suddenly lowering of world opinion of Americans just because of the many horrendous decisions that the Bush administrations made over time (which happened on a large scale, I don't know if it was clear to Americans at the time -- I witnessed the unflattering European perspective because that's where I was living at the time). Yes, in some sense as taxpayers and voters we do bear responsibility, and hopefully we will have learned our mistakes and elect better leaders in the future, or push harder for financial regulatory reform and stand up to the financial industry special interest groups. But in terms of immediate punishment, it'd be much more effectively to punish the big bank bosses directly, rather than let taxpayers be saddled with all the burden and wait for the reform of the whole system slowly happen. The other reason why I brought this up is that in every culture there are bad apples, the financial system has an incentive in place that encourages top investment bankers to gamble recklessly, and rewards those that do so without moral scruples. To judge the moral culture of Americans purely by those at the top of the financial world is silly, just as it is to judge the moral culture of Chinese people by those at the top of China's political/ecomic/financial world.

Finally, most of the athletes in question are really young girls, pre-teen girls away from their parents and friends, who train so hard and forego their childhoods and a proper education, just for the chance to compete and make something out of their athletic career. It just seems so cruel and unfair to permanently destroy their careers just because these *children* couldn't say no to the team officials' demand, either by directly banning their ability to compete during a critical period in their athletic development (which for girls happens in a very compressed few years), or by allowing the federation officials to use them as scapegoats to exonerate themselves.

And I especially don't see the value of banning all the Chinese athletes whose ages aren't in question. How do you know they didn't actively stand up to pressure for an age change? And now you want to punish them anyway? Then in the future, why would anyone bother to stand up to the officials?

Ok, this was a REALLY long post. I should desist and go to bed. Thanks all to those who had the patience to read it through. ;)
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
Feraina, you've pretty much confirmed my thoughts about the plight of the athletes themselves. I didn't know that story about Tong, but I had heard that Hongbo Zhao wasn't allowed to date, and at that point he was nearly thirty. And every aspect of these athletes' lives can be controlled because they live in what I'd call a barracks from an early age.

In most aspects I'd disagree with your parallel of the U.S. financial system, though I understand that what you're spotlighting is the aspect of "heads I win, tails you lose." I agree with that part, and I think it occurs anytime there's such an extreme imbalance of power or privilege between two groups. The parallel I make is the one to the old athletic system in East Germany. The coaches and others in charge were gods, and the athletes were servants. I wouldn't expect any of the athletes to speak out against authority if they suspected that their age was being falsified. But alas, I would expect them to lose out if there's any punishment for the Chinese federation.
 

prettykeys

Medalist
Joined
Oct 19, 2009
So what will perhaps improve the Chinese skating federation is grass root supported reform of the administration that makes it more transparent, and the officials responsible for problems (like the discovery of age falsification) as well as the gains (competitive success). And obviously that will take time.
...
This is why I think that the belief that meting out severe punishments to the athletes (by banning them from competition for years, especially if their age isn't even in question) is both unfair to them, and also ineffective -- it is misguided to think that within that authoritarian culture that athletes' suffering will quickly, if ever, lead to a change in the political culture.

I basically agree with feraina's description of how the falsification happens. However I disagree on the following points:
...
--The idea that change will take a long time. Baloney. Things in China happen really really quickly as soon as somebody near enough the top of the pecking order plants his foot firmly in someone's tushy and so it goes down the line. If the Chinese wanted to, they could get this Federation cleaned up and get the skaters' ages back to reality within a few months. Definitely by next season. Yes, it means some lumps have to be taken and probably medals returned. And there is no question of loss-of-face for the Federation, at the very least.

--Grassroots change? Don't bet on it.
I agree with bigsisjiejie. One of the advantages of authoritarian systems in general is that they tend to implement changes more quickly and efficiently than democracies.

You are contradicting yourself. First you said there's nothing happening at the grass roots level in China, and now you say in fact it's becoming a national embarrassment in the sports circles and that's going to lead to change -- how can this causal conclusion be drawn if you don't think grassroot sentiment "in sports circles" at least matter somewhat?
bigsisjiejie is not contradicting herself at all. She's not referring to grassroots-led changes, she's referring to top-down bureaucratically driven changes.

Secondly, I didn't say that changes have to happen slowly. I said changes will happen slowly if you only punish the athletes and allow the federation officials to wiggle out of blame.
No, look at the quote I cited above. You also mentioned that grassroots inspired changes would "obviously take time." bigsisjiejie already disagreed with your argument about authority-driven changes from the top taking a long time; now she is emphasizing that grassroots changes which YOU are in favour of, would take time.

Instead, I think ISU should really stand up to the political pressure and issue a statement that really place the blame where blame lies, which is that there has been systematic fraud, falsification, and pressure on athletes from the bureaucratic officials from a top, central level. They don't even have to specifically punish the officials, they just have to be brave enough to point their fingers.
Pretty sure everyone agrees with this...

The only problem is that some people are not convinced that athletes are completely innocent. There were some implications here and there that many Chinese athletes from rural areas do not entirely know when they were born. That still doesn't excuse the fact of "discrepancies" which suggests that ages are played around with in an attempt to gain some advantage.

I'll reply to the rest a little later.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
feraina said:
ETA: As for fairness to other athletes and federations, let's look at precedence. In the 2002 SLC Olympics, when it was determined that there was cheating going on at the judging level, a second gold medal was awarded, but the original gold was not taken away from the Russian couple. Why? Because people felt the athletes were not at fault, even if with the exact same skates, had there not been the judging scandal, the Russian couple really only "earned" the silver medal. By the same logic, if ISU determines that it is really the federation officials' fault, and not individual athletes' fault, then maybe their medals shouldn't be taken away either, but rather to reward the other athletes who should have been rewarded with a medal, or a differently colored medal. And what happened to the judges found guilty, by the way? They were suspended, but other judges from their federations were not, even though the cheating was happening at some systematic level, with implications at the federation level. And some of that may be for a good reason, because maybe there were upright judges who maybe specifically resisted cheating in a corrupt federation, and you don't want to punish them in a blanket punishment.

Now that's ambitious. Reranking every skater in every competition where one age falsification was found, paying the new earnings, etc. I can't imagine the ISU not balking at this.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Particularly since they would have a hard time collecting money that was paid to underage Chinese athletes (or any athletes, for that matter). How would you do that, for heaven's sakes? Maybe they could get any medals back.


The money is spent for choreographers, living, costumes, coaches, training before the ink is dry on the check.

Let's look at just one instance, Sui & Han. If they are illegal, as claimed:

Wenjing Sui:
ISU Birthdate: 18.07.1995 (15) She is illegal for Seniors this year and was illegal for juniors last year.
Listed Birthdate: 07.05.1997 (13)

Cong Han
ISU Birthdate: 06.08.1992 (18)
Listed Birthdate: 3.1989 (21) He is illegal for juniors this year (too old)


This year alone, they were third at SA, second at CoC, and third at the GPF, and second at the Asian Winter Games. (If she's too young for seniors). And they were 1st at JGP Dresden, JGP 2nd at Cup of Austria (he would have been too old).

Last year they were
1st at the JGPF and 1st at Dresden JGP and 1st at Minsk Ice JGP and 1st at Junior Worlds. Sui was too young for all these events if the allegations are true.

All those medals would have to be returned and redistributed.

As to the money,
first place in the JGPF in 2009/2010 netted $9000 for a pair team,
For Minsk $3000
For Dresden $3000
And 1st at Junior Worlds $15,000

So this fraud, if the accusations are true, netted $30,000 in the 2009/2010 season
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2009–2010_ISU_Junior_Grand_Prix#Prize_money

The same pay scale was used in 2010/2011 season:
2nd place in a JGP event netted $2,250
1st place in a JGP event netted $3,000
3rd place at Skate America netted $9,000
2nd place at Cup of China netted $13,000
3rd place at the GPF netted $12,000

Already in the 2010/2011, they have netted $39,250, and that's without competing at Jr. Worlds, where it is likely they would win again, and earn an additional $15,000. (They are ineligible for Senior Worlds in any case).

So who would pay back the $69,250? I doubt strongly that Sui and Han received any of this money.

It is a huge can of worms, because that's just one pair, and I didn't include the Asian games prizes, because I couldn't find a listing for the prize money.
 
Last edited:

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, that is what I expect happens in China. In the US, the money pretty much ends up in the hands of coaches, choreographers, costume makers, etc. etc.. Whatever anyone thinks of this, I hope they will never try to recoup any money from these very young skaters. Medals, maybe. But not money.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
I do feel for the young skaters however if they got medals and were awarded prize money for winning a competition they SHOULD NOT have been allowed in though deception, they SHOULD give them back and give them to the rightful winners. No matter who made them do it.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I don't think that going back and changing the almanac after the fact really accomplishes much. Like a college football team that used an ineligible player and years later has their name scratched out of the official record book. All the athletes have long gone on with their lives, and they know they won the championship no matter how many asterisks some bureucrat puts in the ledger.

The only punishment that counts is the spanking that you are feeling right now. The college suffers if you take away scholarships and bowl eligibility for next year, not for last year. I think (in the unlikely event that anything can be proved) that the correct punishment is the one spelled out explicitly in the rules for the use of ineligible skaters: the federation cannot participate in any ISU championship for one year.

Last year, when the Chinese Federation tried to send three teams to junior worlds when they qualified for only two, the entire Chinese team should have been disqualified from that event and the next year's.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I always remember Shirley Babashoff, one of the greatest swimmers American produced. In the 1976 Olympics, she and everyone else was blown away by the East German team, and Babashoff (who one just one gold, in a team relay), commented that the East Germans seemed to have been enhanced by drugs. Many people called her a sore loser. One can argue whether an athlete should or should not speak up like that, but she said she wasn't motivated by sour grapes. Others echoed Babashoff's claim as well, but nothing could be proven with the tests that existed at the time. Years later, after the Berlin Wall came down and many secrets were revealed, it was discovered that these girls, these children, had been given anabolic steroids for years. Shirley Babashoff was contacted, and I don't remember if she specifically said "I told you so," but she certainly conveyed it. She probably didn't have the life she would have had as a multiple OGM winner, but she made her way and brought up a son. Many of the German champions had children with profound birth defects or couldn't have children at all. Many of them suffered illnesses and unsettling changes. One of them had sex change surgery because she no longer felt like a woman. So the champs ended up as losers.

I'm not saying that the Chinese athletes were physically jeopardized to that degree, although I think that many of them will suffer ill effects from being pushed into senior competition too early. But I don't like the idea that they are used up like this to advance something from which they will not benefit.
 
Last edited:

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, I thought of Shirley Babashoff, too. And the way commentators belittled her because she did not beat the East Germans. It was pretty ugly. And none of it deserved by her.
 

skfan

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
feraina, your posts make me wish this forum had a clap button. thank you, thank you, thank you.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
I don't think that going back and changing the almanac after the fact really accomplishes much.

Tell that to the 2nd place team/player who lost out on a medal/prize money. I'm sure the 2000 Olympic gymnastics teams would rather have their medals than not, after all they did earn it.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
The more I think about this, the more I believe that although the best punishment would be to punish the Chinese Skating Federation, in truth, what will that do? If this was the US or Canada, and the whole federation received sanctions, the federation would then be at the mercy of its skaters--lawsuits would be all over the place, and the federation will follow the rules, because many parents will put their foot down and say, "I do not want my child associated with this..."

China is different. If your child is picked by the federation at an early age, you basically lose your child. Sure, in the future, if your child makes it, your family's financial situation improves, but at what cost?

Then again, maybe if the federation wasn't allowed to participate for a year, retired Chinese skaters would become part of the federation, and improve it for skaters. I would rather see Hongbo Zhao and Lu Chen heading the federation, rather than a nameless state official, who may or may not have had background in figure skating.
 

Nadine

Record Breaker
Joined
Oct 3, 2003
You know to be completely honest, I don't care what China or any other country does in their own country, that's their business; as history has proven trouble only starts when people don't mind their own business. Nor do I have the right nor the desire to tell them how to conduct their own affairs. I'm a foreigner in their country, and I understand that.

But when it comes to international affairs, like skating, wherein they are a participant, they have to follow the rules just like everybody else, or pay the consequences. And if that means giving back a medal (like they did 10 yrs. later to the USA Gymnastics Team) or facing a ban like Russia has had imposed on them several times, then so be it.

Rules know no race, color, creed, gender, nationality, sexual orientation. They are there for everybody to follow. And China isn't exempt.

Here's hoping China does the honorable thing, or else have it forced upon them to do so. I would rather it be the former. Jmho of course.
 
Top