Chinese Skaters' Age In Question

This is what the rules say:

Each Member must ensure that Skaters entered for Senior and Junior Competitions, ISU Championships and Olympic Winter Games fulfill the requirements of the Rules. In case of violation, the Member concerned may lose the right to send Skaters the following year to all Senior and Junior (as the case may be) ISU Championships and International Competitions.

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So, banning the entire country is exactly within the rules.
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-203191-220414-166536-0-file,00.pdf

There is quite a difference between

In case of violation, the Member concerned may lose the right to send Skaters the following year to all Senior and Junior (as the case may be) ISU Championships and International Competitions.

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and two year suspension of the whole federation including all disciplines based on allegations alone.

It has already been pointed out that ISU has a lot of flexibility at their discretion in deciding what to do about rule violation. So we have to wait and see. Increasing the penalty at this point is impossible and irrevelent to the situation.

Jumping in late to this topic, as it took place during my absence, but I just wanted to add my zero cents as well.

The following famous quotes are my take on lying and liars in general:


"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!" ~ Sir Walter Scott

"Ambition drove many men to become false; to have one thought locked into the breast, another ready on the tongue." ~ Sallust

"Any fool can tell the truth, but it requires a man of some sense to know how to lie well." ~ Samuel Butler

"False words are not only evil in themselves, but they infect the soul with evil." ~ Plato

"It is not enough to speak, but to speak true." ~ Shakespeare

"Liars when they speak the truth are not believed." ~ Aristotle

"There can be no peace without the truth." ~ Beethoven



This is why I appreciate the few, like me, that actually use their real name on the 'net. Anything else is false. Just my humble opinion, of course. Carry on.

And may all the liars in the world lie well.

SkateFiguring said:

^^^^^I don't know how you got whatever you're reacting to so much. That post was in response to suggestion of suspending China for two years. I'm for applying whatever current rules are instead of devising specific punishment without considering the real effect. I don't believe a whole country or even a whole discipline has been banned from competitions because of a cheater such as Ben Johnson or a repeated drug user like Marion Jones. Establish the facts and the culprilts and deal with them according to existing rules, but not those not involved. Is that not a reasonable position?

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bekalc's reactions are completely justified and I happen to agree. The ISU can definitely suspend the entire Chinese Federation (officials, coaches, skaters) for various periods of time if they so choose. And without making up new rules or new penalties retroactively. Let the punishment fit the crime.

You do not impress anybody by bringing up examples like Marion Jones or Ben Johnson, whose transgressions were clearly limited to themselves and their associates, and were NOT SANCTIONED by their respective Federations. Witness the aftermath. That is very different from the situation with the Chinese Skating Federation, which is taking an active part in the deception (along with the General Administration for Sport)--systemic lying and cheating about ages can only take place with a considerable degree of organizational collusion. In this case, a huge part of the apparatus is rotten and there is no way to selectively target--too much blame to go around. And yes, this includes skaters and coaches, even though most of the skaters are not holding any of the power cards in this equation nor did they make the decisions to falsify, they still went along with it. Their punishment should be not being able to skate internationally for a period of time. If this coincides with ending their careers, tough cookies.

Keep posting SkateFiguring, your credibility on this issue with every post is going down, down and is close to circling the drain. Have you considered that to most people here, you seem to be trying to defend the indefensible?

The one group I can't find it in myself to blame is the skaters themselves. These are kids whose who live in an authoritarian state, but more than that, they live in an athletic system where their every move is supervised and commanded. As I understand it, most of them live not at home but in a compound. (The gymnasts and probably the swimmers and divers are probably also in this situation.) We've seen this before, in other countries where the state went all-out to achieve sports excellence. I suppose the first example was ancient Sparta. One notable recent example was East Germany.

To the athletes, many of whom are barely teenagers, the coach is a god. If you are part of this system, you don't speak up. You can't say, "Hey, let me see that birth certificate, please." I remember the accounts of East German swimmers, particularly the girls. In swimming, it isn't lightness that's prized, but bulk. So the coaches told them, "Here, take these vitamins." They weren't vitamins, but androgens to build muscle. The swimmers were phenomenally successful. Of course they were; they had the muscle and lung capacity of boys, in girls' bodies. It was only years later, when the government changed, that the truth came out, and it was largely because of the widespread incidence of drastic medical problems suffered by the swimmers. Why didn't they speak up? Because I'm sure that was an alien concept to them in that time and place.

Whatever gets done to China to bring them in line with the rules, I can't blame the skaters for not speaking up. We're all very bold and outspoken here on the Web, we adults who don't even have to give our real names and won't lose our livelihoods if we open our mouths. But I couldn't see myself uttering a peep if I were some undersized skater living hundreds of miles away from Mommy and Daddy, with six other little girls just itching to take my place and the honor of my family and my country on my shoulders.

Olympia, I completely agree. That does make it challenging for a one-rule fits all approach.

SkateFiguring, lets presume these are the facts.

1. All the allegations are true. (and we're talking about five or six different allegations spanning over a decade)
2. The skaters were told that they would have different official ages submitted to the ISU/IOC etc and if they wished to remain on federation support and be eligible for national and international competitions, they had to play ball.
3. Higher officials (above coaches) were well aware of this chicanery and actively encouraged it.

No one is saying that the allegations should automatically force suspension of the federation. My suggestion of a two year federation suspension was in response to wallylutz's question: "If the ISU can prove there has been a systematic attempt to violate the age rule, what do you think the punishment should be and what actions/sanctions should the ISU take? " (emphasis mine). If there is no proof, obviously no consequences should/would follow.

The thing is I don't expect proof to come. So while I personally believe in the allegations due to the way the math works as well as the widespread nature and the consequences remain for the skaters (I suspect that due to recent scandals, people will believe it to be true, which means it's unlikely that Sui/Han or the Zhangs will ever be fairly marked again), I don't expect to see proof. I just hope the explanation is creative and interesting as a narrative.

bigsisjiejie said:

bekalc's reactions are completely justified and I happen to agree. The ISU can definitely suspend the entire Chinese Federation (officials, coaches, skaters) for various periods of time if they so choose. And without making up new rules or new penalties retroactively. Let the punishment fit the crime.

You do not impress anybody by bringing up examples like Marion Jones or Ben Johnson, whose transgressions were clearly limited to themselves and their associates, and were NOT SANCTIONED by their respective Federations. Witness the aftermath. That is very different from the situation with the Chinese Skating Federation, which is taking an active part in the deception (along with the General Administration for Sport)--systemic lying and cheating about ages can only take place with a considerable degree of organizational collusion. In this case, a huge part of the apparatus is rotten and there is no way to selectively target--too much blame to go around. And yes, this includes skaters and coaches, even though most of the skaters are not holding any of the power cards in this equation nor did they make the decisions to falsify, they still went along with it. Their punishment should be not being able to skate internationally for a period of time. If this coincides with ending their careers, tough cookies.

Keep posting SkateFiguring, your credibility on this issue with every post is going down, down and is close to circling the drain. Have you considered that to most people here, you seem to be trying to defend the indefensible?

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Has there been any confirmed cheating and crime here yet? NO! Maybe it will. If indeed after the investigation completed, the ISU has found out them, the sanctions and punishments of some sort should, of course, apply to the party involved. At this point, everyone is still talking about asumptions and speculations.

You've sounded like it's purely ISU and IOC's fault not to punish China and Chinese with such (in your eyes) hard evidences and crystal clear crimes.

bigsisjiejie, if you are talking about SkateFiguring's credibility, please don't forget that you yourself don't have much credibility on any of these issues related to China and Chinese. While SkateFiguring is giving level-headed analysis and balanced arguments, your credibility was already down to circling the drain before this thread was even up.

Nadine said:

"Oh what a tangled web we weave, When first we practice to deceive!" ~ Sir Walter Scott

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That what I love about this board! Every day I learn something. I would have bet any amount of money that this quote was from Shakespeare, Midsummernight's Dream (long with "Lord, what fools these mortals be.")

Thank you! :thumbsup:

Doesn't bigsisjiejie live in China? Even her username is Chinese... I'd think she knows more of the system (maybe?) than most of us foreigners..

burntBREAD said:

Doesn't bigsisjiejie live in China? Even her username is Chinese... I'd think she knows more of the system (maybe?) than most of us foreigners..

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I believe bigsisjiejie has mentioned before that she is from a Western country but currently lives in China.

Yes, I recall the same thing. bigsis jie is from a Western country, but either currently, or in the past, or both, lived in China

It's an emotional issue though, and all posters should all be careful not to insult other posters, even when they strongly disagree with them.

dorispulaski said:

Yes, I recall the same thing. bigsis jie is from a Western country, but either currently, or in the past, or both, lived in China

It's an emotional issue though, and all posters should all be careful not to insult other posters, even when they strongly disagree with them.

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:thumbsup: Doris! Posters, please do not accuse one another of lack of credibility. A scandal of this magnitude is making the ice even thinner for skating.

dorispulaski said:

Yes, I recall the same thing. bigsis jie is from a Western country, but either currently, or in the past, or both, lived in China

It's an emotional issue though, and all posters should all be careful not to insult other posters, even when they strongly disagree with them.

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Thanks so much, Doris.

This is such a difficult issue, and however it's resolved, some innocent people are going to get hurt, skate fans in various parts of the world are going to be upset, and national pride is going to be wounded. This is a huge and damaging situation that, as blue dog says, hurts all of skating. And as far as we know, no one on this board either caused it or can cure it. Let's not injure ourselves in the process.

oleada said:

This is what the rules say:

Each Member must ensure that Skaters entered for Senior and Junior Competitions, ISU Championships and Olympic Winter Games fulfill the requirements of the Rules. In case of violation, the Member concerned may lose the right to send Skaters the following year to all Senior and Junior (as the case may be) ISU Championships and International Competitions.

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That seems very straightforward and a sensible solution. If it is established the the National Federation deliberately engaged in dishonest shenanigans, then they can't send skaters to ISU championships for one year.

However...here is the latest development:

Chinese skating officials said poor record-keeping was to blame for the latest questions about the age and eligibility of some skaters, including the 2006 Olympic pairs silver medalists Zhang Dan and Zhang Hao. A list of birthdates on the Chinese Skating Association’s Web site indicated that the Zhangs, who are not related, and at least six other athletes violated figure skating’s age limits by competing when they were too young or too old.

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So there you go. That doggone web master just posted all the wrong birth dates. All is well.

The Chinese fed can't seriously expect anyone to believe that. As mentioned before, there is a clear pattern, the discrepancies are in one direction for the girls and the other direction for the men. How can poor record-keeping result in such a pattern?

I'm not an expert on China, but from what many of my Chinese friends have told me (many of whom are in their twenties), some of them don't really know their true age. It has nothing to do with calendar conversion, but most people who are born on the countryside either do not accurately report to the census, or have records that have disappeared. What needs to be fixed isn't necessarily the sports system, but the way the whole nation keeps record.

If anyone is found to have committed any sort of wrongdoing, then the only punishment would be to return the medals they have won during the ineligible period (Zhangs in 2003/ Sui-Han the last year), and those who are still ineligible will just have to skate domestic events until they are finally eligible. Look at Bazarova/Larionov-- he took cold medication, and was banned from competing for a year.

Mathman said:

So there you go. That doggone web master just posted all the wrong birth dates. All is well.

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Off with his head!

blue dog said:

I'm not an expert on China, but from what many of my Chinese friends have told me (many of whom are in their twenties), some of them don't really know their true age. It has nothing to do with calendar conversion, but most people who are born on the countryside either do not accurately report to the census, or have records that have disappeared. What needs to be fixed isn't necessarily the sports system, but the way the whole nation keeps record.

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I'll repeat. The discrepancies are in one direction for the girls and the other direction for the men. How can poor record-keeping result in such a pattern?

I'll respond--are all of these kids from the same villages? With the same registrar for birth certificates?

Are they from villege at all?