Ice Dance - Free Dance | Page 10 | Golden Skate

Ice Dance - Free Dance

A.H.Black

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2004
I have a question about the judges scores for Davis/White vs. the Shibutani's

I noticed that Davis/White had 8 elements but the Shibutani's had 7. Then I noticed that Davis/White had CuLi4 and RoLi4 as two separate elements while the Shibutani's had both of the same elements together as a sequence or a combination (+). Davis/White had a 4 point base value for each - equaling 8 pts. The Shibutani's had a base value of 8 points for the combination. So far they are equal. However on the GOE, Davis/White have 1.00 and 1.36 respectively - equaling 2.36 points. The Shibutani's have a total GOE for their combination of 1.70.

Did the Shibutani's lose potential GOE marks by doing these elements together? Does their GOE just reflect they didn't do these elements as well as Davis/White? Am I misunderstanding the difference?

I have been impressed with the Shibutani's technical scores.
 

sequinsgalore

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 12, 2008
I have a question about the judges scores for Davis/White vs. the Shibutani's

I noticed that Davis/White had 8 elements but the Shibutani's had 7. Then I noticed that Davis/White had CuLi4 and RoLi4 as two separate elements while the Shibutani's had both of the same elements together as a sequence or a combination (+). Davis/White had a 4 point base value for each - equaling 8 pts. The Shibutani's had a base value of 8 points for the combination. So far they are equal. However on the GOE, Davis/White have 1.00 and 1.36 respectively - equaling 2.36 points. The Shibutani's have a total GOE for their combination of 1.70.

Did the Shibutani's lose potential GOE marks by doing these elements together? Does their GOE just reflect they didn't do these elements as well as Davis/White? Am I misunderstanding the difference?

I have been impressed with the Shibutani's technical scores.

It's true the Shibutanis lost some potential GOE by doing a combinationlift. Davis/White admitted that this was reasoning for doing only short lifts in stead. Personally I find combinationslift to be more awe-inspiring, and hopefully teams will get higher GOE from the judges because of this than they would otherwise. Davis/White always get high GOE's on lift, so here it was smart decision to do only short lifts.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Throwing out the highest and lowest, D/W gets 2s in GOE for RoLI4 and all 3s and a 2 for their RoLI4, whereas the Shibs receive 2s for their CulI4+RolI4. So it's understandable that D/W's total is higher. However, if all 2s in GOE translates into 1 point for BV of 4, should the same GOE translate into 2 points for BV of 8? IOW, instead of 2.36 vs 1.70, shouldn't it be 2.36 vs 2.00?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
colleen, some comments on your comments

I'm taking the explanation at face value ..There will be many of us who know ,first hand, that when you're recovering from an injury or surgery, it's so , so easy to put too much strain on, or injure some other muscle, tendon ,etc. Other parts of your body automatically try to take up the slack , and when you feel this you must stop ,or risk a further separate injury. So I'm going to look forward to World's and hope that's enough time for Tessa to progress beyond that stage. The 30 seconds or so that we saw of their FD was spot on ballroom Latin ( brilliantly brought on to the ice) and I long to see the whole thing. ( Can they move, or what ?)

I want to take the explanation at face value, I really do. But I remember how much they hid Virtue's problems during the Olympic season. I love how natural they seem doing this, though. Even if Virtue doesn't quite nail the gyrating sexuality of the piece she really is awesome and Scott of course is the best male dancer in the world.

I'm still not getting a real tango feeling from Meryl and Charlie, and I want to , so I'll just trust them to keep polishing.( I thought I noticed a couple of teensy bobbles , too ..but it was 4;30 AM ,and there were some less than great camera angles ).

I think in the end it's the difference between drama and passion. Drama is action and events - and this dance is jampacked with action. Those devilishly complicated lifts. The linking steps. That spin. But passion is feeling/emotions. They've never been the most emotive or communicative skaters. They wow and impress with their athletic expression (and indeed, it's astonishing just how much power they generate and how good they really are) but in terms of generating those wells of feeling... they really do come up short. It's a more noticeable here than in "Phantom of the Opera" or "Samson and Delilah" because tango requires it to really have oomph. Additionally, because the program is so difficult it's so clearly effort-full, which leaves even less room for natural emotion. In the end, I'm still awestruck but what they do, but yeah, they miss that tango feeling.

The Shibs ! I just knew they could do what they did ( come up right behind D/W ) by just doing what they do..;) ( if you take my meaning ) It was , once again , delightful. Airy above, crisp below and smooth all over.

I look forward to their progress. They have such joy in their dance. I do think they could get more power, but this dance might just disguise that.

W/P ?..Andrew has to get a grip, and not be vulnerable to the unexpected, if they hope to establish themselves at World's. They finally had the the kind of cushion they deserve after their SD ( this hasn't always been the case , IMO ), only to see a medal slip away by another narrow margin , and this time it was truly in their power to avoid.( Please do it, guys! )

C/P didn't skate particularly well , but well enough. They,too, had a couple of bobbles.. (bumping together, having to reach..that kind of thing ).They were obviously not happy with their marks, but who knows whether that was just due to knowing mistakes they'd made , or if they thought they were undermarked. Anyway, they can't have been pleased to be passed by the Shibs.

Ah, the Canadian number 2s. So this will be the fourth head-to-head competition this season between C/P and W/P, and C/P have won every time. I think that the last time C/P lost to W/P was when C/P were still competing as juniors. Honestly, I really don't know what to think.

I admire C/P's SD more than most. I like how quickly they go into their first element (so little set-up time, a gorgeous position and great strength move) in how late in the program their last element is (again, right before the ending) but the consequence to that is that their middle minutes are a little sparse and due to the repetitive nature of the music.. well, despite my appreciation it clearly doesn't work. And while I adore their FD, they haven't gotten to the levle of cleanliness to really make it work. I expect them to work massively hard, but maybe a coaching switch is in order? Particularly if the Shibs have truly passed them (one event doesn't make a new world order)

As for W/P.... I really enjoy watching Poje; he has wonderful presentation skills even if he tends to cede the spotlight. But it does seem he's the one who makes the most errors/bobbles/stumbles.

I really do hope one or the other really steps it up at worlds. My money's on C/P.

I'm really appreciating C/Z's program more and more. They may have skated it better at US Nat.s ( can't remember clearly )..but I find it more appealing every time I see it.

I'll have to come back.

More and more I'm convinced this is a great program. Huge leap in what they did before. Cannot wait for them at worlds.
 
Last edited:

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Throwing out the highest and lowest, D/W gets 2s in GOE for RoLI4 and all 3s and a 2 for their RoLI4, whereas the Shibs receive 2s for their CulI4+RolI4. So it's understandable that D/W's total is higher. However, if all 2s in GOE translates into 1 point for BV of 4, should the same GOE translate into 2 points for BV of 8? IOW, instead of 2.36 vs 1.70, shouldn't it be 2.36 vs 2.00?

This is a quirk. Four short lifts w/ same GOE is less than three lifts (two short, one long). So if things are close, yes - that can make the difference. Yes, the ISU should look at that. But the way the rules are written now, combination lifts are slightly underscorsed comparitively. Like sequinsgalore, I do hope they ISU looks at this next season.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
IP, have you watched the HD version of the FD, from the Canadian broadcast? It makes a huge difference, because the Taipai feed was as much as 20 seconds out of synch, causing D&W to look like they ended 15 or 20 seconds behind their music and when the interview came, Meryl's words were heard when Charlie was talking, and vice versa (rather funny). Having the music synched right makes a big difference, especially when you're trying to get the musical feeling of the piece.

Here's the Canadian coverage of the FD:
D&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WipUUXmzyTk

Tracy Wilson is finding their tango expression far better here than at the beginning of the season, and I find it significantly better than at US Nationals.

Shibs
http://www.youtube.com/user/aplysia06#p/a/u/2/s-DO12zKTk0

Crone /Poirier's FD exists in the Canadian coverage, but not Weaver & Poje's. Neither is on youtube (or I have not yet been able to find them).

Also, I have not been able to find any coverage of C&Z's FD, and I'm very fond of it :cry:
 

yunafan1860

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Watching Davis White FD gives me the weirdest feeling - that I'm actually seeing the two characters from Phantom of the Opera taking a break from their original exhausting program and dancing a tango.
I may need to check my electrodes after dinner.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Isn't Eleanor Rigby about being lonely and not relating?

Criticisms of them not relating in that dance should be taken as compliments.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Actually, according to Paul Poirier, their dance is not about anything, it is an abstract piece. Their costumes emulate the British flag. So the dance is not about not relating either. Or relating. Which makes my head spin a bit, but it's OK. There's nothing that says your dance has to be about anything at all.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
IP, have you watched the HD version of the FD, from the Canadian broadcast? It makes a huge difference, because the Taipai feed was as much as 20 seconds out of synch, causing D&W to look like they ended 15 or 20 seconds behind their music and when the interview came, Meryl's words were heard when Charlie was talking, and vice versa (rather funny). Having the music synched right makes a big difference, especially when you're trying to get the musical feeling of the piece.

Here's the Canadian coverage of the FD:
D&W
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WipUUXmzyTk

Tracy Wilson is finding their tango expression far better here than at the beginning of the season, and I find it significantly better than at US Nationals.

I did. They definitely HAVE improved their tango expression. As they grow more comfortable with the difficulty (which has basically been occuring with every event) they grow better at the expression. It's just not quite there yet.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
IP, I would agree that D&W need a bit more ...OTOH, there are 4 weeks or so till worlds, and the FD has been improving with nearly every outing.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
I know. It's rather scary just how ambitious they've been this season, and how good they are.

Being an uber-anything (and lets be honest, we all know where my passions lie) in these days almost feels unfair. A lot of interesting teams are doing a lot of terrific stuff. I mean, we have an ice dance team from Spain that has a lift as thrilling and innovative as any we've seen. We have skaters that seem to defy gravity and physics and are pushing their bodies to incredible extremes. I still geek out over D/W's rotational lift (the one that requires Meryl to do approximately ten thousand crunches day to pull off). But any team that gets me to ask ".... HOW DO THEY DO THAT" at least three times in any given program (and for D/W, it's the opening lift, that rotational lift, and the spin) deserves respect and enthusiasm.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Well, when you asked us what we wanted to see at Worlds in dance, I realized that I like so much about so many teams that I want them to run the comp. twice so they can all medal :laugh:

When you think it's a post-Olympic year and that K&K, C&L,k and F&S (favs of mine) have had a bad year, and S&B are out due to injury, it's amazing how much good, good stuff is out there.

If only the ISU would rethink this vile SD idea :cry:
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
yes as long as the criticism is constructive and actionable... to say that an athlete is a wicked witch or a prince is neither.

And that was the point of my diatribe.

As noted by others, C/P are only 19/20, and in my book that still makes them pretty young. And when the boy is younger than the girl, the team can seem really young. I think some of the criticism of this team's "chemistry" or perhaps lack thereof, will maybe fix itself with age and maturity. These 2 just have a very young vibe. There are some really young skaters that pull off maturity beyond their years, but that wouldn't be C/P. And that's not a bad thing. Give them time to grow. In ice dancing, it used to be that a team wouldn't hit their prime until their late 20's, or well into their 30's. Just because we have some incredibly talented teams in their early 20's winning Olympic medals doesn't mean this is normal. What's the rush? Why do we suddenly expect all teams to be all grown up and fully developed by early 20's? I think about Del/Shoes, Dub/Lau, and even Wing/Lowe. None of these teams reached their prime until 30's or almost 30's. Thinking about Dub/Lau, they had some pretty eye-brow raising, messy programs early in their Senior careers. But they finished their competitive careers with the best of the best - refined, gorgeous, innovative, consistent, ...(sigh).

And this comment applies to Weaver/Poje as well. Yes, Poje needs to work on consistency/mental strength under pressure, Weaver needs to fix her lines among other things. But there is loads of potential in this team, and they are still very young. Without the glaring errors in the FD, they would have been 2nd. Really, it was defeat from the jaws of victory for them, unfortunately. A learning experience for them, I'm sure. Yes, both teams are serious athletes who continue to invest time, heart, energy, money into the sport (I'm not sure I'd class them as professional athletes at this stage yet.) But they are not robots, and they are both early in their development. Hopefully both will be around for quite a few years yet.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
The Shibutanis last year looked like were in danger somewhat, dropping to 4th at JUNIOR Worlds. However they are having an amazing resurgence this season.

Shibs have got to be my new favorite team this year. They have been amazing at Junior for a long time, and then had an "off" year last year because of growth issues. They are simply back in a groove this year. And this is maybe drift from another thread, but really, I think the Shibs have the most potential of all the new teams moving from Junior to Senior this year. It is going to be very exciting to watch this team develop over the next few years.
 
Top