The Male (Ice) Dancer

(Disclaimer--I am so tired from practicing for my tests that this question may be incoherent; for that I apologize in advance)

Of the male dancers, do you see similarities (besides, of course, good skating skill) amongst the best ones? Charisma, stage presence...a willingness to let his partner be the star, but he is somehow in the lead?

Maybe a better question would be, "what is a successful male dancer?" One who wins a lot of medals? I don't know-- Maurizio Margaglio has won more medals than both Jerod Swallow and Povilas Vanagas, and surely, many believe that Swallow and Vanagas are better dancers than Margaglio.

Also, it seems that it is harder to produce a good male dancer than a good female dancer. For a while, American girls would try out with Russian males in the hopes of making it in ice dance (my favourites being Melissa Gregory & Dennis Petukhov; those two were just made for one another). Nowadays, it seems North America has a lot of great male ice dancers (not that their female partners are chopped liver, of course).

The definition of what is a good male ice dancer changed quite a bit with COP. COP insists on both partners in the team being able to do all the basic turns and twizzles with equal strength with either foot, and to make an effort to be equally strong in both the clockwise and counter clockwise direction. Poor Maurizio would never have been a World Champion under COP, as his and Barbara's efforts in 2006 showed. So the rise of COP has been part of the reason that the role of the male ice dancer has changed.

But one should not condemn Maurizio too loudly. In the days of Pakhamova & Gorshkov it was assumed that the guy was a third leg, just there to present his fabulous (and possibly diva-esque) lady. That was an old style pre Nijinsky, not to say Baryshnikov ballet perspective, I always thought. And as such, being a ballet perspective, a more Russian than North American thing, although I'd like to see what Russian fans have to say about this, because I am not a big ballet fan, nor Russian, and no expert on the subject. From the outside, it looks to me like there have been changes in ballet, too.

But the diva-centered dance team certainly wasn't the North American & English perspective on ice dance, which had its original roots in the social dancing seen in the old compulsory dances. In social dance, in North American movies, musicals, & vaudeville, it was just as apt (or maybe even more apt) to be the GUY who was the star: Fred Astaire, Gene Kelly, George M Cohan, & Bojangles Robinson (and I'd love to see someone do either singles or ice dance to "Mr Bojangles") and many other guys were the main draw in productions. One of the innovations of Torvill and Dean was that both partners were equally good,techically, but Chris was the starrier of the two stars in the couple. And in fact, if you look at the more successful North American ice dancers, often the team was either equal, or the guy was the starrier partner. Robert McCall, Jerrod Swallow, Scott Moir, Michael Siebert all were just a little more the star of the show than their partners. It's not always the case, but it's common. Charlie White started out more noticeable and accomplished than Meryl Davis, but the gap has closed, and in some of their dances, he's the hero, and in some she is, and in their Bollywood OD, they both are. I think having both partners equally accomplished adds to the options that great teams have, as to what stories they can tell on ice, and it's something I really applaud.

blue dog said:

Maurizio Margaglio has won more medals than both Jerod Swallow and Povilas Vanagas, and surely, many believe that Swallow and Vanagas are better dancers than Margaglio.

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I'm not sure about that. I agree that Vanagas and Swallow were better skaters than Margaglio. But in terms of the "dance" part of ice dancing, I think that translating ballroom dances to ice in the CDs and ODs was one of Margaglio's biggest strengths.

Scott Moir has great presence as an ice dancer, but Tessa caught up to him a year or two ago, IMO. They are a very well-balanced team. Definitely one of their strengths.

(She was wonderful in the CSOI group numbers this year. That girl can really move to the music.)

dorispulaski said:

(and I'd love to see someone do either singles or ice dance to "Mr Bojangles")

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Kurt Browning did for his first Gotta Skate show.

^^ This year, when I saw their SD, I found myself watching her more. Not because of the injury, but because, you are right--Tessa caught up with him as an artist. As a skater, they were always equal, but she was always more introverted than him. Now, she almost has the confidence that Katarina Witt has.

blue dog said:

Also, it seems that it is harder to produce a good male dancer than a good female dancer. For a while, American girls would try out with Russian males in the hopes of making it in ice dance (my favourites being Melissa Gregory & Dennis Petukhov; those two were just made for one another). Nowadays, it seems North America has a lot of great male ice dancers (not that their female partners are chopped liver, of course).

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It's harder to produce a good male ice dancer because there are a lot less of them. The scarcity of male partners in ice dancing is nothing new. Female ice dancers lacking a partner outnumber available males by the trillions. It's also true in pairs skating and dance in general. Most men just don't go for dance related competitions.

blue dog said:

Of the male dancers, do you see similarities (besides, of course, good skating skill) amongst the best ones? Charisma, stage presence...a willingness to let his partner be the star, but he is somehow in the lead?

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A definite YES. at least for ballroom dancing, and why not? The male dancer should not try to take the spotlight from the Lady. A good Lead will give signals to his partner about speed, direction, breaking, etc. That's his job and not like that Russian/American team who won a bronze Oly medal, but that wasn't his fault. She did not come up to his standard.

That's my problem with White, although lately, he is allowing Davis to have her moments on the ice. I believe his problem is that he was a Single skater beforehand where he must shine, and that still gets to him.

Now, that's an interesting aspect to it, Joe. Weren't Torvill and Dean singles skaters before they became ice dancers? And Dean certainly was the scene stealer. But then, he was such a skate genius, and that's rare in either gender. Torvill was no slouch, and they must both have valued each other's contributions, because they're still working together.

Olympia said:

Weren't Torvill and Dean singles skaters before they became ice dancers?

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Dean definitely was not. When he started skating,he was focused on ice dancing from the start.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Dean

Christopher Dean began to skate at the age of 10 after he received a pair of skates as a Christmas present. His parents were keen ballroom dancers. At school he was captain of the football team and he saw ice skating as a sport that was athletic and graceful. Dean's first ice partner was Sandra Elson. They began skating together when he was 14 and competed as ice dancers for a few years. However, despite becoming British Junior Dance champions, the team parted, as Dean and Elson did not get along well. Dean then agreed to try out Jayne Torvill, another skater at the Nottingham rink. The pair were first coached by Janet Sawbridge but in 1978 Betty Callaway became their coach.

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Also note that Britain was still the dominant force in ice dancing through the late 1960s when he started skating -- Soviet teams were only just starting to make their presence felt internationally.

Torvill had started in freestyle and was actually primarily a pair skater before she teamed up with Dean.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jayne_Torvill

She became hooked on ice skating at the age of 8 following an after-school trip to the local ice rink. In 1971 at age 14 Torvill became the British National Pairs Champion with her then partner Michael Hutchenson. After parting with Hutchenson, Torvill continued to skate on her own for a while before teaming up with Dean in 1975.

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All beginners need to learn at least some rudimentary skating skills before starting to work on partnering. Some who are interested in ice dance from the start may begin partnering on the easy dances as soon as they can skate on edges. Others may not make ice dance (or pairs, as the case may be) a priority, or find a permanent partner, until senior level. Or anywhere in between.

Joesitz said:

A good Lead will give signals to his partner about speed, direction, breaking, etc. That's his job and not like that Russian/American team who won a bronze Oly medal, but that wasn't his fault. She did not come up to his standard.

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I can't place which team you're talking about here. Which team is it?

I stand corrected, gkelly. Thanks so much for the info! I knew there was some transition from another discipline for one or both of them but obviously garbled it in my mind.

beabstress said:

I can't place which team you're talking about here. Which team is it?

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I think the reference was to Lang and Tchernyshev, four-time U.S. champions. (Although they did not win a medal in the 2002 Olympics.)

Mathman said:

I think the reference was to Lang and Tchernyshev, four-time U.S. champions. (Although they did not win a medal in the 2002 Olympics.)

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aren't they five timers?

Tonichelle said:

aren't they five timers?

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Yes; Lang and Tchernyshev won the U.S. Senior Dance title in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, and 2003.

beabstress said:

I can't place which team you're talking about here. Which team is it?

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Getting old and forgetting is a problem for me. The team I was referring to may have been in Worlds Comp and not an Oly. The decision for their bronze medal was extremely controversial with thoughts of payoffs to the judges. The American Lady had a very wealthy family from what I have been told. The Russian male dancer was acknowledged as being one of the best Ice Dancers. They beat out a team from Lithuania.

Somebody has to remember their names.

Joesitz said:

Getting old and forgetting is a problem for me. The team I was referring to may have been in Worlds Comp and not an Oly. The decision for their bronze medal was extremely controversial with thoughts of payoffs to the judges. The American Lady had a very wealthy family from what I have been told. The Russian male dancer was acknowledged as being one of the best Ice Dancers. They beat out a team from Lithuania.

Somebody has to remember their names.

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That sounds like Chait and Sakhnovsky, who competed for Israel.

Joesitz said:

Getting old and forgetting is a problem for me. The team I was referring to may have been in Worlds Comp and not an Oly. The decision for their bronze medal was extremely controversial with thoughts of payoffs to the judges. The American Lady had a very wealthy family from what I have been told. The Russian male dancer was acknowledged as being one of the best Ice Dancers. They beat out a team from Lithuania.

Somebody has to remember their names.

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Lobacheva/Averbukh? That fits part of the description

a) Controversial bronze (2001, beating out the Lithuanians)
b) she doesn't come to his standard (he left Peizarat because he fell in love with her and wanted to skate with her)
...but she's not American, though they trained in the USA.
c) they were at the Olympics, coming in second, though for the most part, that medal wasn't disputed. The bronze was.

ETA: Nevermind, Olympia has it.

Joesitz said:

A definite YES. at least for ballroom dancing, and why not? The male dancer should not try to take the spotlight from the Lady. A good Lead will give signals to his partner about speed, direction, breaking, etc. That's my problem with White, although lately, he is allowing Davis to have her moments on the ice. I believe his problem is that he was a Single skater beforehand where he must shine, and that still gets to him.

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Focus only on the lady is still primary in ballroom standard but not so much in Latin. Also re figure skating, Doris is correct, that the new rules mean that the male dancer must be as strong or even stronger (with the creative lifts) than in days past. Both Charlie and Meryl skated singles. Charlie finally gave singles up after he broke his ankle. The Bollywood OD was a woman's dance, so the focus was supposed to be on Meryl, where she did shine.

Yes, that Bollywood OD and the Samson & Delilah FD are my favorite two programs from them-both coincidentally where the focus was on Meryl, primarily.

Charlie broke his ankle playing hockey, not in singles, AFAIR?

And Joe, yes, you could describe Galit Chait as American, since she spent more of her life in the US than in ISR, and AFAIR, wasn't Serge originally Russian? So your memory of them (other than the names) sounds right.