Winning Ways | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Winning Ways

mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Reason for meltdown - Takahashi's free skate, 09 GPF

SkateFiguring, I am intrigued that you think Daisuke 'has the winner's attitude' - I am still in each competition fearful that he'd have yet another implosion! (I am sure his 4 falls in free skate at 04 TEB was the record in GPS, until surpassed by Denis Ten's 5 this season at SA!) He's been one of the most endearing headcases for me for so long. Anyway, he had a major meltdown only 14 months or so ago at 09GPF. If you're interested in what caused it, here is a summary of his own reasoning...
  • Fatigued after coming second in Skate Canada, and also relieved that he secured a spot at GPF, he could not put 100% into practice and training running up to the GPF;
  • Knowing that he wasn't prepared, he had no choice but just to go for it for the short - he said it was his luck he got a very good score and placed first after the short;
  • He exhausted what little was left in him in the short, and he knew about it and thus was very nervous for free skate (he used the following analogous to describe the feeling - as if trying to find an excuse for not having done homework for the next day);
  • During the practice and warm-up, lacking in confidence, he was trying his best to look good and strong - he said he was all the while ashamed of and hating himself for being like that;
  • He was actually scared of going on ice to skate;
  • Failing the quad, his mind went blank. Lost concentration, he wasn't even sure what he was doing (only one of three spins was counted, as he repeated CCoSp three times);
  • He analyses being too nervous caused loss of concentration, and only knowing that he had practised enough and was thus prepared could allow him to believe he could do it whatever happens.

He said he was least nervous at the Olympics last season, as he knew he practised as much as he could. He thought to himself, whatever happened, it could not be worse than the GPF - he reckons that his meltdown at GPF somehow helped him to be less nervous for the biggest event of the season.

Yes Oda was stressed out and in tears over how to break the pregnancy news to his mother, who didn't even know of his girlfriend.

I am not sure this is entirely true - I know this is what Nobu's former coach Morozov told the press, but I always take his comments with a pinch of salt. (His story of breaking up with Daisuke and taking on Nobu never really made any sense - contradicting not only Dai and Nobu's stories, but his own time to time!)

It is however most likely that Nobu was stressed by his personal circumstances, which perhaps prevented him from concentrating 100% on training running up to the Worlds, - I am sure he was going to do that after disappointment at the Olys. Taking a hint from Dai's story of meltdown at GFP, I wonder if it was not the stress itself, but knowing he could not practised fully due to the stress that caused his epic meltdown in the short.
 
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mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Yuzuru Hanyu and his fellow Japanese skaters

Yuzuru is seen as a unique young skater by many figure skating fans in Japan. Before him, not many Japanese men expressed so openly their love of being in competition and sheer desire to win. Japanese 'boys' are often described by those who know them well (e.g., journalists) sweet, kind, sensitive, moody, sometimes even naive. Makoto Okazaki, former skater himself and now an international technical specialist, once described the difference between Japanese ladies and men at competitions - there is often so much tension between the girls at competitions that it could even be scary sometimes, but, despite their rivalry, boys are friendly and sometimes found chatting to each other in the locker room just before the competition begins. There is, according to Makoto, an atmosphere that they are in it together and might as well support each other.

In such an atmosphere, not many Japanese men have expressed their rivalry in public. They always name each other as inspiration, and say things like 'I'd love to be like him' rather than 'I'd like to beat him'. Competitions are always described as where they do their best, not where they beat everyone and be on the top of podium.

Then there came Yuzuru - I read in his interview a year ago, he said he could not say he enjoyed the competition unless he won. He could NOT believe others said there was no regret (if they did their best) even if they didn't win - no way one could be free from regret if they lost. This year, he said he was so disappointed in himself when he came below Artur Gachinski at COR, whom he had beaten at the WJC last season. Boy, he is competitive alright! Not that he is big headed though - he knows he needs to learn more and get better and he loves it. He just thrives in competitions. He said, on his way up, he could see many 'walls' that he has to climb over and go beyond. He names Daisuke and Patrick as two of the last walls to get over in his journey. I cannot remember any other Japanese men describing their competitors in such a way. On Nobu's accent in 2005/06 to threaten his position as Japan's top man, Daisuke thanked him for giving him a kick in a butt and said he would not have been as successful without Nobu as his arch rival. Dai's coach once described her student as 'too sweet to compete and that was frustrating thing about him.' Yuzuru is a different bleed indeed.

I don't know if he has watched live performances by Plush, Johnny and Todd

Not with Todd, as I know of, but Yuzuru appeared in a few shows during the summer with Plushy and Johnny. Both of them seem to be fond of him. Johnny in his tweets called Yuzuru his favourite and cheered for him for the FCC, as well as, for some reasons, ended up designing the costume for him. Yuzuru said Plushy gave him a few tips / lessons in how to do the quad during the show's practice. Plushy called him in one of the interviews a major contender for the gold at Sochi - though I suspect it could a bit of lip service. Well, who knows, I remember Plushy naming Daisuke, still an endearing headcase, as one of his main contenders at Torino 2006, and took all Japanese figure skating fans by utter surprise. (And Dai imploded in the free not too much to our surprise...)
 
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blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Luckily for skaters competing under the COP, perfection is no longer a requirement to do well. Time was, doing a program cleanly was hugely important. That is absolutely no longer the case. As Sasha showed at the FS in Turin (you're right about her toughness there). She may have screwed up at first, but she didn't give up and still racked up enough points for silver. And of course, nowadays people love to bellyache about how many skaters win despite falling. We may have a lot less perfect performances at the top now, but I'm fine with that if it gives an incentive for skaters to keep performing after mistakes instead of giving up.

I think this was why, during 6.0, a lot of skaters gave up after making early mistakes, except for those who were trying moves that no one has attempted before. Because the perfect program was often the benchmark, skaters who made early mistakes would just call it a day. I think that's what gave Sasha a lot of difficulty in her career--until that skate in the Olympics.

Of course, some skaters, when they make that early mistake, relax so much that they have the skate of their lives AFTER the mistake (Nancy Kerrigan doubling the flip in Lillehammer, then skating perfect afterwards).
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
mot thanks for the detailed account on Daisuke's 09GPF. I guess you answered my question whether his winning ways came naturally to him or if he had to cultivate it through experiences.

Over a year ago before the Olympics, on the skating thread of another forum, I commented that Takahashi was a great skater, a medal contender but he tended to be inconsistent. Few Americans even knew him then and they were impressed by the Little Japanese Guy. He exulted an air of confidence, showed the determination to do the 4F, flirted with the judges and audiences alike, just being a rock star on ice and a great showman in general. So he really made a name for himself with his Olympic Bronze and the World Championship gold with his memorable programs. I'm sure his popularity soared in Japan, being the first Japanese Men's World Champion must have made him a national hero. And he has exhibited heroic/Samurai qualities to inspire his fans while endearing himself to them.

Hardly anyone can win every competition. But a winner learns from every experience and turns every life event to his advantage. That was exactly what Daisuke did with his 09GPF. Gaining insight from a terrible loss, he turned his career around. That is what I mean by a winner's attitude. A loser tends to learn negatively, often wrong lessons from his experiences, reinforcing the wrong mindsets and finding it more and more difficult to break out from bad mental habits and to break through in life, career, etc. Thanks again for the story, mot. I hope you will relax watching Daisuke. I don't think he is liable to repeat mistakes because he learns from them.

I stongly believe a moment of insight is worth more than a life time of experiences. An insight gained can be used for the rest of one's life. Winners don't often repeat same mistakes because they gain insights from them. I've urged some people to go make new mistakes instead of the same ones all their lives. There are so many new fun mistakes to be made so why such loyalty to old ones. ;)

My instincts about my favorites are getting good. E.g. I was really nervous for Patrick at the Olympics, knowing he was not really prepared. I realized I was totally relaxed at his GPF performances when they were over. The Nationals was simply exciting all the way.

Well, Oda. I love the guy but at the Olympics Joannie showed how a winner performed under the most difficult circumstances. Has Nobu ever explained what happened with him at last Worlds? He seems to have put that firmly behind him and is having a great season, getting on the podium in every competition he participates in.

I rolled my eye at Morozov's interview, especially at his basically calling the Japanese men ugly. What were the reactions to his comments in Japan? Maybe it didn't get any press because it was done in Russia?
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
mot, very interesting info re. Yuzuru. I knew he had met Johnny who also designed his costume. I hope he changes his costume designer next season! I also knew Johnny is very fond of him but with Johnny it's always about himself so Yuzuru's admiration must really appeal to his ego and the affection will be returned.

However, the most interesting part was an answer to a question I wanted to ask you. I've read a Chinese fan's experience with Nobu and Koz. Koz was very uncomfortable and apologetic when Nobu was asked to take a picture of him and the fan because it was disrespectful to Oda the "elder". Nobu was described as more Westernized and didn't mind it at all. Anyway, I have been wondering if such respect for someone even just a year or two older would discourge young competitors to win over their seniors, thus delaying their own rise in the ranks. Then I thought of Yuzuru the yougster, especially the fact that he doesn't name the world's elite compatriots as his role models. So it seems my suspected effect does happen and that Yuzuru is indeed a marverik.
 

mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
It's an interesting question - what keep competitors going, what drives them on.

When I watch Joubert, personally I want him to retire. It's been years since I've enjoyed his skating, though at one time he was one of my favorites. I feel like he's regressing technically and at best holding steady in artistry. I just wish I felt like he had more of a new story to tell, rather then just filling out his resume.

Joubert intrigues me, and I also wonder what keeps him going. On the record, he is a phenomenal competitor; his track records in the Europeans and the Worlds are nothing but impressive (Ok, the Olympics are not his thing, but...) He always seems to be able to pull himself together somehow for those occasions. But something about him that makes me think there is a kind of fragility in him, though I cannot really point my finger at what it is.

There are skaters whose skate I just adore and love, and Joubert does not fall in this category. But there are also skaters I cannot help being intrigued and root for - namely those skaters whose emotion is almost see through in their performances (and often headcases!); and Joubert is definitely one of them (though he is not a typical headcase). I was actually surprised by myself favouring Joubert's performance in the short at Torino World last year, over my all time favourite Daisuke's... There is something so touching and exuberant about his performance that night.

I wonder if he likes just to skate and find a joy in improving (so he's trying something different this season?), or perhaps he loves doing the quad too much, which he describes as an amazing experience, like flying in the sky. Maybe he likes to 'fight' and compete. I am sure he thrives in drawing reactions from passionate fans and spectators (but he can do that in shows too.) There is a possibility that he's doing it for his country - until someone like Florent can definitely fly the flag for men's skating in France? His answers in the interviews often seem too generic to me - maybe he's shy? I don't feel the same passion in his interview as the one I feel in (some of) his performances. Maybe that's where I smell a kind of fragility?

Whatever the reason, I do hope he finishes this rather difficult season for him with a high note, and continues his success till Nice Worlds at least.
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Yuzuru is seen as a unique young skater by many figure skating fans in Japan. Before him, not many Japanese men expressed so openly their love of being in competition and sheer desire to win. Japanese 'boys' are often described by those who know them well (e.g., journalists) sweet, kind, sensitive, moody, sometimes even naive. Makoto Okazaki, former skater himself and now an international technical specialist, once described the difference between Japanese ladies and men at competitions - there is often so much tension between the girls at competitions that it could even be scary sometimes, but, despite their rivalry, boys are friendly and sometimes found chatting to each other in the locker room just before the competition begins. There is, according to Makoto, an atmosphere that they are in it together and might as well support each other.

Why do you think there's such a difference between Japanese men and women in skating (at least until Yuzuru)? Is this true of other areas of competition in Japanese society? For instance, competing against each other at their work, in school, are women more likely to be openly competitive while the men remain friendly? This is the exact opposite of most other societies I know of. Why do you think that is?

Johnny in his tweets called Yuzuru his favourite and cheered for him for the FCC, as well as, for some reasons, ended up designing the costume for him.

This explains so so much. I always thought Yuzuru's costume had some really Johnny-ish embellishments. I used to think they were homages, now I find out it's just Johnny's lack of creativity.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
This thread is interesting. Thanks, SkateFiguring!

Yuzuru is so much like young Johnny but technically better.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
(Takahashi) had a major meltdown only 14 months or so ago at 09GPF. If you're interested in what caused it, here is a summary of his own reasoning...
  • Fatigued after coming second in Skate Canada, and also relieved that he secured a spot at GPF, he could not put 100% into practice and training running up to the GPF;
  • Knowing that he wasn't prepared, he had no choice but just to go for it for the short - he said it was his luck he got a very good score and placed first after the short;
  • He exhausted what little was left in him in the short, and he knew about it and thus was very nervous for free skate (he used the following analogous to describe the feeling - as if trying to find an excuse for not having done homework for the next day);
  • During the practice and warm-up, lacking in confidence, he was trying his best to look good and strong - he said he was all the while ashamed of and hating himself for being like that;
  • He was actually scared of going on ice to skate;
  • Failing the quad, his mind went blank. Lost concentration, he wasn't even sure what he was doing (only one of three spins was counted, as he repeated CCoSp three times);
  • He analyses being too nervous caused loss of concentration, and only knowing that he had practised enough and was thus prepared could allow him to believe he could do it whatever happens.


I believe it all still comes down to the mind. The real cause is nervousness and the belief in his inability to perform on that occasion, i.e. the LP. There were causes for such belief, beginning with physical one (inadequate training due to fatique), then a cascade of nagative beliefs set in. He was able to do well in the SP but he attributed it to luck instead of using it positively to build his confidence. Then guilt and shame set in. He felt unworthy of winning without doing the "homework" (an ingrained belief), feeling ashamed and even self loathe for "looking" good and strong at practice and warm up instead being encouraged for "being" good and strong enough to look good and strong. Feeling like a poser, he became scared of being found out and scared to actually perform. The outcome was entirely predictable. He first failure (4T fall) made him lose focus on the moment completely, resulting in an inevitable meltdown. I believe it was self punishment. By going for the quad anyway with such total lack of confidence in himself, he ensured that he would fail the entire program.

I believe that if he had believed in himself, there was probably still enough reserve in him to do his LP decently well, like he did for the SP, which he however believed to be his last capable effort and a shameful luck. He couldn't even welcome good luck and believe in it. The short cut solution to his problem could be mind over matter with a strong belief and confidence in himself. But such mental state was impossible for him due to many other ingrained beliefs, mainly that only hard work and what he considered adequate training could bring good results, and any good results without such preparation was something to be guilty about. That was his strong sense of honour. He could not violate the beliefs nor the honour. Ergo, the total "deserved" failure.

Only knowing that he had practised enough and was thus prepared could allow him to believe he could do it whatever happens.

It's not "that he had practised enough and was thus prepared" that ensures "he could do it whatever happens". It is the "knowing" that could allow him to believe he could. And when he believes he could, he can.

His analysis was correct that the cause of his implosion was nervousness (and shame and guilt). Note the insufficient training itself is not the direct cause. To prevent such nervousness in a way that is congruent with his beliefs, he had to put in the work of physical practice and training. With the lesson learned and if he keeps to it, such implosion will not happen again. From a mental perspective, he could have adjusted his mind over the situation, using every happening to stay positive instead of building negative thoughts. He could have also done a lot of mental practice of his skating when physically limited. There have been experiments conducted that show mental practice is almost, if not equally, as effective as physical practice.

He said he was least nervous at the Olympics last season, as he knew he practised as much as he could. He thought to himself, whatever happened, it could not be worse than the GPF - he reckons that his meltdown at GPF somehow helped him to be less nervous for the biggest event of the season.

Here he did use the event positively to great results.
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
I can't forget a video that was posted here a while back where Daisuke met a famous Japanese ballet dancer and got some tips from him on posture and flexibility. What stuck out for me was the astounding self-confidence of the dancer and the deep humility, or lack of confidence, of Takahashi. It was like the ugly duckling visiting the swan or the peasant meeting the king. You'd never have known from the way he carried himself that Daisuke was a skating star. I believe this was right after he won Worlds.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Takahashi was completely star struck by Kumakawa. But I don't think he showed lack of self confidence. He came face to face and visited with someone he had admired, along with almost the entire population of Japan, and the purpose of the visit involved consultation. He came to pay respect to and learn from a famous and highly regarded star/national hero, so his natural humility is very much in evidence. He wasn't thinking of his own star status. Just another human being, a humble and eager-to-learn one, meeting his idol.

Kumakawa did exhibit a supreme self-confidence. Takahashi said he couldn't take his gaze. Some people do have such radiant power.
 
Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Oh, so that's his name--you helped me look up the video, but unfortunately it's been taken down for copyright infringements.

What I don't get it, isn't Dai a star in Japan too? The episode seemed very one-sided to me. Kumakawa didn't express any admiration for or even awareness of Takahashi. He (Kumakawa) was definitely fabulous, though. And I can see why he admires himself so much. :p (I love the way he grins through the performance, you don't see that too often - he is so in the zone.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWoItv_6g
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Not considering personality factors, Kumakawa had been a big star for a long time whereas great success and popularity was only newly achieved by Takahashi. He still had to get used to it while it was probably already a part of Kumakawa's self-identity. Takahashi was likely aware that skating stardom could be fleeting. If he didn't keep up with his training, it could be gone quite quickly. No hard work, no winning.

Then there is the cultural factor. Kumakawa is the elder whom Takahashi should be deferential and respectful to.
 
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mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Why do you think there's such a difference between Japanese men and women in skating (at least until Yuzuru)? Is this true of other areas of competition in Japanese society? For instance, competing against each other at their work, in school, are women more likely to be openly competitive while the men remain friendly? This is the exact opposite of most other societies I know of. Why do you think that is?

I can only speculate, but I guess it is something to do with the difference in the depth of field and sheer competitiveness required to win a spot at the Worlds and Olys. Ladies field has been very deep and very competitive in Japan for a long time. The personal rivalry between Fumie Suguri and Shizuka Arakawa is legendary. There have been a number of Japanese ladies who could win not only the National title but the top 10 finish in the international stage - Fumie, Shizuka, Mao, Miki, Yukari, recently Akiko and Kanako... The fight to win the ticket to the Torino Olys in Japan Nats 2005 is legendary. Any of the ladies in the final flight had a chance. (Except Mao who was too young to qualify.)

On the other hand, when it comes to Men's field, there was a long reign of Takeshi Honda, who was one of the top men in the world, and the rest were struggling to advance to the free skate at the Worlds. Then there came Takahashi, who took over the status, followed by Oda and then Kozuka. Even now, we kinda knew it would be those three who would go to the Worlds this season without waiting for the result of Japan Nats, while we had no idea which of the top four ladies in Japan could win the ticket to the Worlds. There is a still a considerable 'gap' between the top 3 and the second tier of Japanese Men - though it can change with the accent of Yuzuru.

Also, I often meet many very competitive woean in the field where it is hard for them to be the top elite - I mean in some professional worlds where being a woman can be a disadvantage to begin with - much more competitive and driven than top men in the same profession. When you need extra drive and competitiveness to be successful, gender difference become less significant.

This explains so so much. I always thought Yuzuru's costume had some really Johnny-ish embellishments. I used to think they were homages, now I find out it's just Johnny's lack of creativity.

:laugh: I wonder what Yuzuru himself thinks of that pink costume. Even if he had been disappointed with the design when he'd received it, I am sure he could not have possibly said no to it.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
:laugh: I wonder what Yuzuru himself thinks of that pink costume. Even if he had been disappointed with the design when he'd received it, I am sure he could not have possibly said no to it.

How can you say no when your object of worship, aka idol, wants to creat you in his own image?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
In reference to the original question of why some skaters want to do a quad at all costs, perhaps because of personal pride, this came up on the Ladies thread in the Worlds folder. In the olden days, ladies took pride in showing mastery of all six kinds of jumps and would always, if they were able, present all five triples and a double Axel in every LP.

This seems to be a loser in CoP judging. It is better to do two Lutzes and two flips than to do two Lutzes, a flip, and a loop. Programs are often designed around avoiding elements that a skater can't do very well.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
The olden days may not be that old since jumps, especially triples, weren't even done in the real olden days.

It might be "pride" but it might just be the way to score (invisible) points under 6.0. Doing all jumps impressed the judges who then placed you higher. It worked then but not under the current CoP system where every element is analysed and scored accordingly. Naturatlly the strategy becomes to maximize points with the highest scoring jumps and combinations you can do.

Evolution is often misconstrued as survival of the fittest but it's really survival (and thriving) of the most adaptable. Adapt and win. Competitive skaters know this well, or should.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
The olden days may not be that old since jumps, especially triples, weren't even done in the real olden days.

It might be "pride" but it might just be the way to score (invisible) points under 6.0. Doing all jumps impressed the judges who then placed you higher. It worked then but not under the current CoP system where every element is analysed and scored accordingly. Naturatlly the strategy becomes to maximize points with the highest scoring jumps and combinations you can do.

Evolution is often misconstrued as survival of the fittest but it's really survival (and thriving) of the most adaptable. Adapt and win. Competitive skaters know this well, or should.

Voila, Rachael Flatt :biggrin:

Thanks, but no thanks :sheesh:

ETA: regarding "invisible points" it seems likeI can recall the scandalous revelations from last season regarding Cop and TR. Talk about "invisible points :laugh:
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Voila, Rachael Flatt :biggrin:

Thanks, but no thanks :sheesh:

She has medalled including Gold, and is a direct entry to Worlds. Winner or loser?

ETA: regarding "invisible points" it seems likeI can recall the scandalous revelations from last season regarding Cop and TR. Talk about "invisible points :laugh:

The points were there for all to see, or get :laugh: from you. It was the TR that was invisible.
 
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