Ladies SP-Courtney Hicks up first | Page 9 | Golden Skate

Ladies SP-Courtney Hicks up first

Serious Business

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Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Please tell us how balletic skaters from the past were.

It behooves you to study the history of figure skating. Artistic skating was created when Jackson Haines did ballet moves on ice. Countless figure skating moves are derived directly from ballet. The spread eagle is the second position. Ina bauer the fourth. Split falling leafs came from grande jetes. The attitude position of the leg in laybacks and upright spins. The arabesque position where the ballet term is kept. Newer moves like arm positions in the tano lutz are an imitation of ballet. The emphasis on toe pointing came directly from ballet.

And no, Sasha did not invent any of these.

If you want past examples of balletic skaters look to Charlotte Oelschlagel, John Curry, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Oksana Baiul. Sasha is just one in a long line of balletic skaters. And skating has moved far beyond its ballet origins to the point where many other types of skaters can succeed.
 

yunafan1860

Rinkside
Joined
Oct 17, 2010
Uh, what? Modern figure skating as we know it was based on ballet from the start. There were skaters with great extension and lines before Sasha. Sasha may have been the apex of the balletic style on ice, but it's been the style for skaters to ape since the sports started. Sasha originated and popularized the i-spin. That's her biggest influence.

uhm...i'm not sure, i think Cohen brought in gymnastic more than ballet...
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
It behooves you to study the history of figure skating. Artistic skating was created when Jackson Haines did ballet moves on ice. Countless figure skating moves are derived directly from ballet. The spread eagle is the second position. Ina bauer the fourth. Split falling leafs came from grande jetes. The attitude position of the leg in laybacks and upright spins. The arabesque position where the ballet term is kept. Newer moves like arm positions in the tano lutz are an imitation of ballet. The emphasis on toe pointing came directly from ballet.

And no, Sasha did not invent any of these.

If you want past examples of balletic skaters look to Charlotte Oelschlagel, John Curry, Gordeeva/Grinkov, Oksana Baiul. Sasha is just one in a long line of balletic skaters. And skating has moved far beyond its ballet origins to the point where many other types of skaters can succeed.

Thanks, was hoping you could come up with something more than common knowledge. ;)

I never said Sasha's "balletic style" set her apart. You referenced that :think:

But whether you agree or not, I still have never seen a skater with Sasha's beautiful positions and extensions. Some credit this to her gymnastics background along with her Dance training.

For me, "attitude" was a big part of Sasha's considerable package.
Even at 14 she already had "it".
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
uhm...i'm not sure, i think Cohen brought in gymnastic more than ballet...

I don't disagree with that either. She did start out as a gymnast.

However, even in gymnastics, the kind of aesthetics that emphasizes extension and pointed toes would still be called balletic (and is indeed also derived from ballet). Sasha's mother was a ballet dancer. If I had said Sasha was the apex of the gymnast on ice I think that would just conjure up images of Sasha doing back flips.
 

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
Okay the Russians girls are good but this Adelina Sotnikova is only 14 right? And tiny. Before anyone crowns her the next Olympic champion it should be mentioned that most likely she still has a growth spurt in her future. If she grows another three four inches who's the say she won't go the way of so many other promising skaters? Until a skater gets to be about 16 and can still jump and improve i don't get excited no matter how good they look on the ice. The same goes for Tuktamysheva who is even younger.

I agree with this. People get too excited about these young girls and then they fizzle out. Everyone was big on Zhang a few years ago, and also Meissner, who I know got a World Championship gold but was not around for as long as people were expecting. Even Nagasu didn't rise to a lot of people's expectations. Remember the Russian babies from 1996, not really seen or heard from shortly after.
 

Serious Business

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Jan 7, 2011
I never said Sasha's "balletic style" set her apart. You referenced that :think:

I did indeed. And I meant it as both a compliment and as what I think is an accurate and succinct description of what sets Sasha apart. I can't think of any other word that would comprise good toe point, extension, perfectly held arms like you're holding a beach ball (as Dick Button used to say) and so on that encompasses that style.

IBut whether you agree or not, I still have never seen a skater with Sasha's beautiful positions and extensions. Some credit this to her gymnastics background along with her Dance training.

Sasha is the best ever at that style on ice. The reason why I credit it more to ballet than gymnastics is because I've seen plenty of gymnasts, hugely successful ones, who doesn't come close to Sasha's style. Whereas I see a lot more ballet dancers who are comparable to Sasha (though of course those dancers couldn't do it on ice).

Where I disagree is that Sasha is the most influential skater of the last decade. Like I said, the balletic style of emphasizing all the things Sasha was so good at existed before and would've continued to exist even without Sasha. For instance, look at the long line of Russian pair skaters, they were all so very very precisely balletic. Sure you can say current Russian pair skater Vera Bazarova has a style similar to Sasha's, but it's more accurate and probable that it came from Russian pairs tradition of drawing from ballet.

Another important thing to look at is whether this style was particularly rewarded under the COP (and whatever the COP rewards does become the most influential thing in skating now). I would have to say no. Unpointed feet, rounded backs and sloppy extensions are a dime a dozen in skaters that nevertheless do great under the COP. If the COP doesn't pick on it most skaters will focus their energies elsewhere. When Sasha competed under the COP her PCS was sometimes hurt by her lack of speed and power, which is the thing the COP watches out for.

What the COP does reward is flexibility when it comes to spins (only way to get all those levels). This is one area where Sasha's influence is apparent. The i-spin is pretty much done by all ladies skaters.

On the other hand, the COP didn't even look for much flexibility for spirals back when those things had levels, so Sasha's exceptional extension and positions on the spirals are wasted on it.

When I look at the state of ladies skating now, I don't see a lot of Sasha wannabes, and I don't foresee a lot of them with the COP set up the way it is.
 

shine

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Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Thanks, was hoping you could come up with something more than common knowledge. ;)

I never said Sasha's "balletic style" set her apart. You referenced that :think:

But whether you agree or not, I still have never seen a skater with Sasha's beautiful positions and extensions. Some credit this to her gymnastics background along with her Dance training.

For me, "attitude" was a big part of Sasha's considerable package.
Even at 14 she already had "it".
Sasha probably took extension and stretch to a new height in singles skating, but she did not "bring in the balletic style". Being balletic is not just about having good extension and stretch, it's also about the way one moves and a certain carriage one has. I agree with another poster who said Sasha was more gymnastic-like than ballet-like. Oksana Baiul had more of truly balletic style.
 
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janetfan

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May 15, 2009
Sasha probably took extension and stretch to a new height in singles skating, but she did not "bring in the balletic style". Being balletic is not just about having good extension and stretch, it's also about the one moves and a certain carriage one has. I agree with another poster who said Sasha was more gymnastic-like than ballet-like. Oksana Baiul had more of truly balletic style.

You are prpbably right, but when we talk about carriage and posture, again, I think Sasha had few equals. Her unrivaled extensions coming from her beautiful carriage is part of what had Button raving about her from the time she came on the scene. And who else pointed their toes on jumps the way Sasha did?

All things considered Sasha was exquisite and musically speaking showed more versatilty than Irina or Michelle who avoided syncopated music like the plague. Sasha could skate to anything . Too bad she fell down so often :p
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I saw Elisaveta and Adelina so far and both were superb,I m happy Elisaveta had a clean sp at laaaast and Adelina was fantastic, I would put Tuktamisheva first but their marks were close so it s ok.
have to see the rest now

 

shine

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
All things considered Sasha was exquisite and musically speaking showed more versatilty than Irina or Michelle who avoided syncopated music like the plague. Sasha could skate to anything . Too bad she fell down so often :p
I am not sure what you mean by "syncopated music". But whether you liked her choreographyor not, Kwan probably has had some of the most versatile music choices of any female skater. Some of her best programs in my opinion like Dream of Desdamona, D'Ariane, The Red Violin had such a wide range of musical dynamics. It's true that Kwan never did any really "dancy" program but as far as versatility goes, I think Cohen is the one who was much more limited to one kind of style - she needed music choices that could show case her bravura style, which were usually music that had a strong, catchy character, like Carmen, Dark Eyes, Malaguena, etc.

And by the way, is this considered "syncopated music" by you?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rG1VhaDnUhQ
 
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lavender

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Edited....I'm really liking Adelina. I'm just keeping my fingers cross that she will stave off the puberty monster. I'm also liking the Japanese girls.:thumbsup:
 
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Serious Business

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Jan 7, 2011
Sasha probably took extension and stretch to a new height in singles skating, but she did not "bring in the balletic style". Being balletic is not just about having good extension and stretch, it's also about the way one moves and a certain carriage one has. I agree with another poster who said Sasha was more gymnastic-like than ballet-like. Oksana Baiul h

I'mma let you finish but Sasha Cohen had one of the best balletic styles of all time.

Really, while I would say Oksana is a stronger figure skater (she had exceptional power and speed and flow and jump height) than Sasha, in the many qualities that ballet emphasizes, Sasha has it all over Oksana. If you don't think extension and stretch are a big deal in ballet, you just haven't been beaten by a Russian ballet instructor for every unstretched toe. I would also say that Oksana is a better performer than Sasha, Oksana had the very natural ability to project and charm. This is an important quality in a dancer, but that applies to any form of dance including figure skating, not just ballet. On the other hand, gymnastics emphasizes power, rotation, balance, some of which Sasha is unexceptional at. So I don't think it's very accurate to call her a gymnastic skater.

You may like Oksana more as a skater, and like her more as a dancer, but a lot of her positions and carriage on ice would not cut it in ballet, unlike Sasha.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I agree about Sasha's spins. I forever hear people wanting to spin like Sasha and all but they wanted to skate like Michelle. That's just been my experience. People wanted to be like both basically. This convo makes me miss the days of Michelle and Sasha. However, I'm really liking Adelina. I'm just keeping my fingers cross that she will stave off the puberty monster. I'm also liking the Japanese girls.:thumbsup:

There are quite a few impressive Ladies at Jr Worlds. Liza is exceptional for one so young but I prefer Adelina which is just my personal taste.

I find it hard to compare skaters to Michelle. She was never the fastest and never jumped the highest but was a very strong all around skater, very consistent, unusually expressive and a tough competitor.
But I think Sasha showed some unique bordering on dazzling qualities and I was a mad fan of both girls. I miss them both.
 

ljaeren

Rinkside
Joined
Feb 27, 2011
Wow, Elizaveta's program was beautiful! Christina and Adelinas were too, and I thought Polina, looked improved. Ive only seen Courtney once, but her jumps didnt look very secure here.
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
Thanks for posting Christina's SP. She did a wonderful job! Everything beautifully landed except the 2A, and great flow and energy throughout the program. I'm very impressed. And it was nice to see Brian looking so happy with her (and Jason Brown cheering in the stands!).

Her costume absolutely doesn't go with that 19th-C. music, though. What were they thinking?
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
Sasha probably took extension and stretch to a new height in singles skating, but she did not "bring in the balletic style". Being balletic is not just about having good extension and stretch, it's also about the way one moves and a certain carriage one has. I agree with another poster who said Sasha was more gymnastic-like than ballet-like. Oksana Baiul had more of truly balletic style.
Sasha, like most skaters of today brought in the Acrobatic Style. It's fine if contorntionism gets to a spectator.

Being balletic is not lifting your leg with your hand. It's got to be by muscle.
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
One thing about the Russian skater and Russian Ladies included, is that they show great technique. It's so nice, at least for me, to see Correct edge take offs for the Lutz. It shows that it can be done, and there is no need for the new idea of partial credit.

There's too much RUSH to get the credit for all the Jumps allowed even partial credit. The only way to get to Carnegie Hall is to practice, practice, practice. CoP has it's dumb points. Partial Credit promotes sloppy technique and therefore,sloppy skating.
 
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