Tomas Verner vilified | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Tomas Verner vilified

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
To say that Tomas should get a pass because he was unaware of how his performance would be received is to make allowances for a (my) generation that is so political uninformed as to be disgusting. In a world of instant access to a wide breadth of information that would be Socrates giggle with enthusiasm and da Vinci's eyes go wide, ignorance is no excuse.

To say that the people who vilified him were right to do so in the manner they did reminds us that actual debate, in the day and age of anonymous internet posting, is about as prevalent as ice in the Sahara.

I'm sorry that Verner was attacked the way he was, but equally as disappointed that the debate progressed the way it did.
 

jenaj

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 17, 2003
Country
United-States
Who were the other "elite" skaters who skated in this show? I don't dispute Tomas' right to skate wherever he wants, but I also think that skating in North Korea was ill-considered.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Who were the other "elite" skaters who skated in this show? I don't dispute Tomas' right to skate wherever he wants, but I also think that skating in North Korea was ill-considered.

Maybe Yuna will skate for the N. Koreans next week since Worlds have been put on hold.

On the other hand Yuna has tried to be a force for good and I suspect we will see her doing charitable work for the Japanese people before she gets involved with an outlaw regime that has recently killed so many of her countrymen.
 

mousepotato

On the Ice
Joined
Mar 24, 2010
If you are as big of fan of his as you claim you are you would have known about all the hurtful things that have been written about him, things that were sent to him via his website even people waiting for him at the airport. If they have a problem with what happened in 1968 they can take it up with the people from 1968 not some skater who was born some 20 years later.

Thank God Yuko Kawaguchi was so sweet to me when got a picture with them, she didn't push me away and say no way! I can't forgive you for dropping two bombs on us!

Walls some down, Soviet Presidents shake hands with American President...times change, I'm not censoring free speech, if they had a problem with him going they should have said something after Euros when he announced he was going. But no one seemed to have a problem until he came home.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
To me, protesting a trip made by a relatively obscure private citizen for a non-political purpose seems a little beside the point. It seems like the protesters should instead be writing to the Czech government to recall their ambassador, or circulating petitions for increased trade sanctions or something.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
If you are as big of fan of his as you claim you are you would have known about all the hurtful things that have been written about him, things that were sent to him via his website even people waiting for him at the airport. If they have a problem with what happened in 1968 they can take it up with the people from 1968 not some skater who was born some 20 years later.

Thank God Yuko Kawaguchi was so sweet to me when got a picture with them, she didn't push me away and say no way! I can't forgive you for dropping two bombs on us!

Walls some down, Soviet Presidents shake hands with American President...times change, I'm not censoring free speech, if they had a problem with him going they should have said something after Euros when he announced he was going. But no one seemed to have a problem until he came home.

I like Tomas the skater but don't know a thing about his views or personal life. I said I have no problem with him skating in N. Korea but can understand if others do.

Having lived in the Czech Republic I am not the least bit surprised there was a protest about Tomas skating in N. Korea and seriously doubt that he was either.

I agree with you in principle and think old wounds can be forgiven with the passage of time.

But the continued provacative actions of the totalitarian N. Korean regime have an affect on the whole region and even the world.

It was interesting reading what Tomas had to say. I think cultural exchanges are a good thing and certainly don't blame all N. Koreans for the actions of their government.

I don't blame Tomas either but I also respect the right of his countrymen to protest what they see as support for a totalitarian regime.

I have read alot of Kundera and Havel and am aware of the influence their writing has had on many Czechs. 1968 was not the end of it and the "Velvet revolution" happened over 20 years later.

43 years for you is a number but is neither accurate or meaningful for many Czech people.

Do hard feelings about Soviet repression matter whether it was in '48, '68, or '88?
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
To me, protesting a trip made by a relatively obscure private citizen for a non-political purpose seems a little beside the point. It seems like the protesters should instead be writing to the Czech government to recall their ambassador, or circulating petitions for increased trade sanctions or something.

He skated at a cultural festival that was patronized by the man in charge of one of the most repressive and brutal regimes in the word, correct?
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Setting aside what Tom Verner choses to do or not to do, the question of whether the good guys should participate in cultural exchanges with the bad guys is not so obvious, IMHO.

In 1976 the U.S. boycotted the Moscow Olympics because Russia invaded Afghanistan. Passing over the irony that Russia eventually managed to get out, while it looks like we will be stuck there forever, it is not clear whether this boycott hastened the demise of the evil empire, gave comfort to the victims of oppression, or accomplished much of anything except to allow Russia to win a few extra medals. In any case, the Russians got even by boycotting the wicked capitalists the next time around.

The Iranians won't participate in any sporting event that Israel also attends. Presumably if an Iranian figure skater (Armin Mahbanoozadeh?) skated in a show in Israel, his life wouldn't be worth a plug nickle when he got back home.

I don't know what to think about it all. I am glad that the U.S. State Department did not act to prevent Shen and Zhao from presenting their Turandot program at 2003 Worlds in Washington because of concern over human rights violations in China.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
The North American natives certainly never curse at any artist, athlete, and entertainer choosing to perform in the U.S. and Canada, desite genidcides, land grabs and occupations, biological warfares and child and sex abuses commited against them, as well as all the signed treaties and agreements dishonoured. And meeting the Pope is still regarded as a privilege rather than a damnable act despite decades of pedaphile crimes by Catholic priests tolerated and covered up by the Vatican.

The Japanese committed unspeakable cruelties against the Chinese but today the Chinese fans mob the Japanese skating and pop superstars. Somehow Russia, China, Japan, and the USA are able to be friendly trading partners despite historical animosities.

Or should the long historical and continuing warfares with mutual vilifications going on in some parts of the world be the model for the state of Homo Sapiens? Should holding on to decades old hurt and misplaced vengeful sensitivities be more respected than establishing relationships among equal human beings of today's generation? Should oppressed people be shunned when it's been shown over and over that reaching out and connecting, opening their eyes and minds, and letting them know of support and caring from more fortunate fellow human beings lead them towards their liberation more than military actions, sanctions, and condemnation of their nation and people?

Is being non-political and connecting with oppressed people through sharing a beloved and beautiful sport more reproachable and unforgivable than spewing hateful obscenities at a young talented skater who has done nothing but honouring his country?

eta. A beautiful irony from the Cold War is the treaty between Russia and USA such that the uranium from the old Soviet missile warheads is providing 10% of the Americans' electricity today! However, the treaty ends in 2013 and is unlikely to be renewed.
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
To me, protesting a trip made by a relatively obscure private citizen for a non-political purpose seems a little beside the point. It seems like the protesters should instead be writing to the Czech government to recall their ambassador, or circulating petitions for increased trade sanctions or something.

This is just your perspective and it seems quite different from some of the Czechs who protested against Tomas.

Nice that you can feel free to express yourself on this and other topics without fear of being beaten and hauled off to a detention camp. Rights that many of us take for granted did not exist for decades in the Czech Republic and don't exist in N. Korea.

FYI, Tomas is not an "obscure private citizen" in his home country but a fairly well known sporting figure.

Although I don't have a problem with Tomas skating in N. Korea I do understand why others could. That is the difference between us.

I remember the fur activists getting on Johnny before the Olympics. It seemed kind of silly and although I don't wear fur it doesn't bother me if others choose too. But that's just me. Others are free to feel differently and in an open society are able to voice dissent.

Personally I think the world is better off when people are free to protest. Or free to disagree with the protesters.

Heads of state in most countries have to consider their actions more carefully due to a free press and various organizations that watch out for human rights and even animal rights.

If presidents and prime ministers are fair game for journalists and protest groups then it seems fair that sporting figures should be too. Even skaters :eek:hwell:
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Poor Tomas. I have been so preoccupied with the tragedy in Japan that I have now just visited this thread and read the article.
Since this is not the political forum of the board I will not comment on that subject. I just wanted to give Tomas a shout out of support.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
There seem to be two different discussions going on here. I can understand why the Czechs might hate the Russians. I understand why the Armenians hate the Turks. I am not too sure how the Spartans feel about the Athenians. It would have seemed natural if there had been a big dust-up on the issue of, "How dare Tomas Verner skate in the 2005 World Championships in Moscow, capital of our historic persecutors. Have you forgotten 1968?"

But that didn't happen. No one had a problem with that.

Now for the second issue. Is it good or bad for athletes and entertainers to perform in countries that have repressive governments? There is a difference of opinion. Some people say it does no harm and conceivably might do some good in the long run. Others feel so strongly the other way that they shout obscenities at any such any such athlete/entertainer. To me, it would be more relevant to pour condemnation on Kim Jong Il than on Tomas Verner.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
The North American natives certainly never curse at any artist, athlete, and entertainer choosing to perform in the U.S. and Canada, desite genidcides, land grabs and occupations, biological warfares and child and sex abuses commited against them, as well as all the signed treaties and agreements dishonoured. And meeting the Pope is still regarded as a privilege rather than a damnable act despite decades of pedaphile crimes by Catholic priests tolerated and covered up by the Vatican.

Not by me. I cannot post my opinion on a family friendly board, however. The first part of your post, however, is straw man.

The Japanese committed unspeakable cruelties against the Chinese but today the Chinese fans mob the Japanese skating and pop superstars. Somehow Russia, China, Japan, and the USA are able to be friendly trading partners despite historical animosities.

Or should the long historical and continuing warfares with mutual vilifications going on in some parts of the world be the model for the state of Homo Sapiens? Should holding on to decades old hurt and misplaced vengeful sensitivities be more respected than establishing relationships among equal human beings of today's generation? Should oppressed people be shunned when it's been shown over and over that reaching out and connecting, opening their eyes and minds, and letting them know of support and caring from more fortunate fellow human beings lead them towards their liberation more than military actions, sanctions, and condemnation of their nation and people?

Interesting. Do you think Verner's actions do this? Do you think despite two decades of famine or near famine existence for the North Koreans was somehow allieviated, either in mind or body, by the actions of a figure skater (who people are apologizing for because he acted in ignorance, and shouldn't have to know these things).

Is being non-political and connecting with oppressed people through sharing a beloved and beautiful sport more reproachable and unforgivable than spewing hateful obscenities at a young talented skater who has done nothing but honouring his country?

Is skating in honour of one of the most brutal leaders of our time the equivalent of having done nothing? Is there such a thing as a genuinely non-political act when you do it for a man that has destroyed a country and terrorized his neighbours?

I'll say this: if I had done was Verner did, there is no doubt in my mind that my parents would disown me (no, I'm not Korean) - knowing the horrors Kim has inflicted on his own people and the destruction of his nation (and the resemblance to my parents own country), it would be a question of how fast. In the end the big difference is past actions vs present ones.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Nice that you can feel free to express yourself on this and other topics without fear of being beaten and hauled off to a detention camp...

I think you are beating up on a straw man here. Everyone agrees that the right to protest is a good thing and that being beaten up and hauled off to a detention camp is bad.

Some people are protesting Verner's actions as ill-advised. Others are protesting the protesters' reactions as uncivil Still others are protesting that position. It's all good.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
I think you are beating up on a straw man here. Everyone agrees that the right to protest is a good thing and that being beaten up and hauled off to a detention camp is bad.

Some people are protesting Verner's actions as ill-advised. Others are protesting the protesters' reactions as uncivil Still others are protesting that position. It's all good.

Yes, I agree with this.
I agree with Pogue's last statement:

"In the end the big difference is past actions vs present ones."

There is a quote that goes something like this:

"Those who forget the mistakes of the past are doomed to repeat them in the future".

True or false?

Some can call it "straw" or anything else that wants to hide from history and excuse and forget the actions of brutally repressive regimes past or current.

This was not a protest against Korean people or Russian people but about a current repressive regime.

Like I said I don't have anything against Tomas for skating in N. Korea. Personally, I would never want to perform in that country under it's current regime anymore than I would accept a few quick bucks to do anything associated with or for Khadafi.
But that is just me.
 
Top