Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware' | Page 12 | Golden Skate

Bradley wants to 'bring home some hardware'

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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By why was Button so insistent that good fast spins used more energy than jumps?

Probably because his programs back in the day were mostly filled with Doubles?

I jest, I jest.

The spin issue is an interesting one. I believe the spins that take up the most energy are the ones that require you to spin the fastest or hold your body in a precise and difficult position (while remaining centered of course). However, CoP doesn't currently reward those spins the most. Every "difficult variation" is not equally difficult but the system credits them as such. Gaining levels with so called "difficult variations" is also more favorable than spinning as fast as possible in a good basic position.

The ideal "basic" spin position for the Sit Spin is actually HARDER than some of the so called "difficult variations". Doing a sit spin with a completely straight back, completely extended free leg, and the butt below knee level is really a more difficult position than many of the catch-foot or cannonball/pancake sit spin positions we see. And yet that "basic" position doesn't count as a feature while the other "difficult" positions, that are both easier and often look worse, do count. The classic sit spin position should really count as a difficult variation. The classic layback, with a great arch in the back and the blade of the free foot parallel to the ice, also should. Same goes for the classic camel, with the upper body facing downward at the ice, the back well arched, the free leg fully extended, and the free foot level with the head.
 

blue dog

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Probably because his programs back in the day were mostly filled with Doubles?

I jest, I jest.

The spin issue is an interesting one. I believe the spins that take up the most energy are the ones that require you to spin the fastest or hold your body in a precise and difficult position (while remaining centered of course). However, CoP doesn't currently reward those spins the most. Every "difficult variation" is not equally difficult but the system credits them as such. Gaining levels with so called "difficult variations" is also more favorable than spinning as fast as possible in a good basic position.

The ideal "basic" spin position for the Sit Spin is actually HARDER than some of the so called "difficult variations". Doing a sit spin with a completely straight back, completely extended free leg, and the butt below knee level is really a more difficult position than many of the catch-foot or cannonball/pancake sit spin positions we see. And yet that "basic" position doesn't count as a feature while the other "difficult" positions, that are both easier and often look worse, do count. The classic sit spin position should really count as a difficult variation. The classic layback, with a great arch in the back and the blade of the free foot parallel to the ice, also should. Same goes for the classic camel, with the upper body facing downward at the ice, the back well arched, the free leg fully extended, and the free foot level with the head.

You are correct! A basic camel is much harder to balance than a doughnut. The difficulty in the doughnut is in pulling your foot to your head. It's easier to balance that thing, because most of your weight is centred.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
No way is the Technical (Sport) of the process comparative any more than a downhill skier loses by one second.

Oh, I don't know about that. Two skaters each do a double Axel. They both satisfy the definition. But even so, one skater's jump is better than the other's.

Your double Axel had exceptional height, excellent flow out of the landing, and it was done right to the beat of the music. My double Axel was merely competent.

Comparing the two, your jump was better than mine, and this fact should be reflected in the scoring.

It would be quite possible to run a foot race with no stop watch. The first one across the finish line wins. That person ran faster than the other guys and deserves the first place ordinal.
 

janetfan

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Oh, I don't know about that. Two skaters each do a double Axel. They both satisfy the definition. But even so, one skater's jump is better than the other's.

Your double Axel had exceptional height, excellent flow out of the landing, and it was done right to the beat of the music. My double Axel was merely competent.

Comparing the two, your jump was better than mine, and this fact should be reflected in the scoring.

It would be quite possible to run a foot race with no stop watch. The first one across the finish line wins. That person ran faster than the other guys and deserves the first place ordinal.

Some of your point is subjective. I prefer the Carroll /Janet Lynn style of jumps that Frank taught Michelle and that we see in Mirai now. Straight up!

I don't care at times if a jump is higher if it has a little tilt or a scratchy landing. Great air position and the flow out is what I like. Others might prefer the more muscled looking style of Plushy or Flatt. I think it is a matter of taste to an extent.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
^ Well, the question was, is it necessary to assign 139.23 points to someone's performance in order to determine a winner? The CoP says, yes.

In ordinal judging, the idea is rather, skater A's performance was best, skater B's performance was second best, and skater C's performance was third best. In either system we have no choice but to rely on the expertise and training of the judges, either in giving out points or in giving out ordinals.
 

janetfan

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^ Well, the question was, is it necessary to assign 139.23 points to someone's performance in order to determine a winner? The CoP says, yes.

In ordinal judging, the idea is rather, skater A's performance was best, skater B's performance was second best, and skater C's performance was third best. In either system we have no choice but to rely on the expertise and training of the judges, either in giving out points or in giving out ordinals.

Yes, but it is still subjective. Yuna is the greatest Lady jumper I ever saw. GOE is subjective, as we see 0, +1 or +2, etc.

All I am saying, especially under CoP is that even the elements feel more subjective than in the past.

Last year at Worlds CoP said Yuna won the LP. I say 6.0 would never have called it that way and Mao would have won.

There comes a point when such extreme micro managing of the scoring begins to feel self defeating.

Watch the two programs and tell me skated better that night?
 
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Joined
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Hernando said:
All I am saying, especially under CoP is that even the elements feel more subjective than in the past.

I go back and forth on that question. The CoP also has the feature that the technical panel can utterly destroy a skater no matter what he/she does.

But we have gotten away from the original point. I listed three reasons (a), (b), and (c) why ordinal judging is better than CoP, and then three reasons {a'), (b') and (c') why it's not (post 188 above). Reason (c) was that a figure skating competition by its nature is an ordinal activity: first place, second place, third place. It is not an add-up-the-points sort of endeavor.

Joesitz disagreed (post 218). Maybe he is right.
 
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Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
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You are correct! A basic camel is much harder to balance than a doughnut. The difficulty in the doughnut is in pulling your foot to your head. It's easier to balance that thing, because most of your weight is centred.

Well I think it depends on the quality of the donut. We're seeing a lot of crap donut spins lately where the skater isn't completely sideways with the blade at their head, forming a good circle, but rather just grabs the blade and pulls it in a bit. But, yeah, the "basic" spin positions for the Sit, Camel, and Layback should be counted as a difficult variation when they are done in the ideal, classic positions. And scratch spins should count for a feature when done properly too!!!
 

janetfan

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I like the ordinal system but there were problems with it too.
Wasn't there a difference between the way US Skating scored as opposed to international scoring? I am talking about back in the 6.0 era andthe way the ordinal rankings were arrived at.
 
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Scott Hamilton and other commentators also make the point that the footwork sequence can only come at the end because it takes so much out of you that you are pretty much finished afterwards.

I like the ordinal system but there were problems with it too.

Wasn't there a difference between the way US Skating scored as opposed to international scoring? I am talking about back in the 6.0 era andthe way the ordinal rankings were arrived at.

Yes, but that was more something for math nerds to wrangle about. It did not affect how the skaters designed their programs.
 

janetfan

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Scott Hamilton and other commentators also make the point that the footwork sequence can only come at the end because it takes so much out of you that you are pretty much finished afterwards.



Yes, but that was more something for math nerds to wrangle about. It did not affect how the skaters designed their programs.

OK, I am with Frank Carroll on this. I liked it better when skaters designed their LP based on the music. Today I think designing LP's first and foremost for points has cost skating something.

Then again I have seen some wonderful CoP programs. But who is to say they would not have even been better (more artisitc) under 6.0?
 

janetfan

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In any given 6.0 season, how many great programs were there?

You tell me ;)

My thoughts were more along the lines that each season has x amount of very good to great programs depending to an extent on the quality of the skaters.

Is Yuna a wonderful skater?

Frank Carroll, thinking Yuna might retire after Vancouver said Yuna will be remembered as a great technical skater. He said the system she skated under did not allow her as much freedom as in the past.

Looking at V/M, cant we say they would have been great in any era? Perhaps the mess that was Ice Dancing has been improved by CoP.

I don't know if we see that in singles. Athletes in most sports are better today than they were 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago.

I am not so silly as to think Yuna is a better skater because of CoP. She would have been totally awesome under 6.0 as well and as coach Carroll points out she would have had the freedom to be more expressive.

Hasn't Yuna even said this season is a chance to show a different side of her skating? The pressure of the Olympics has passed and I think Yuna wants to show more artistry and expression , more attention to detail, and basically what Carroll said was lacking, a chance to show more of herself and how she can skate to music and communicare it to her fans.

I think Yuna wants to skate more like Michelle did back in the 6.0 era.

It will be interesting and fun to see her again
 
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Joined
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Just so there is no confusion :), I would like to add this. I personally do not have a strong opinion about whether CoP or 6.0 is a better system for elite level skating. I am just trying to make precise what the issues are.

However, I do like the CoP for the reason that gkelly keeps reminding us about. Only a tiny handful of skaters ever make it to the world championship level. But the scoring system must serve the needs of hundreds of thousands of skating enthusiasts from little children up to adult competitors.

Under 6.0, if the only thing you can tell a child is that she lost because the judges gave her a 2.6 and they gave Suzie-belle a 2.7, the only thing the skater gets out of that is resentment for Suzie-belle. But under CoP the coach can say, well, you improved from 16.3 points up to 18.2 points because all your hard work paid off and you landed your double Salchow. Next time we can work on adding a variation to your upright spin and get a level 2.
 

janetfan

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Just so there is no confusion :), I would like to add this. I personally do not have a strong opinion about whether CoP or 6.0 is a better system for elite level skating. I am just trying to make precise what the issues are.

However, I do like the CoP for the reason that gkelly keeps reminding us about. Only a tiny handful of skaters ever make it to the world championship level. But the scoring system must serve the needs of hundreds of thousands of skating enthusiasts from little children up to adult competitors.

Under 6.0, if the only thing you can tell a child is that she lost because the judges gave her a 2.6 and they gave Suzie-belle a 2.7, the only thing the skater gets out of that is resentment for Suzie-belle. But under CoP the coach can say, well, you improved from 16.3 points up to 18.2 points because all your hard work paid off and you landed your double Salchow. Next time we can work on adding a variation to your upright spin and get a level 2.

I remember a former US champion shocked US skating when she told them what she thinks of their training methods. She called for teaching the figures and more work on the basics. I think Boitano and many other US skating legends feel something close to scorn for the CoP.

Carroll said it is more frustrating than ever,. He complained bittlery that every judge he talks to offers a different opinion and that in the end he ignores what they say because he knows more about training skaters than US judges.


BTW, please let me know when we will start seeing better results internationally from the CoP training our skaters are receiving. ;)
To be honest I see little to crow about and Worlds will confirm that, no?
 
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Krislite

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Sep 22, 2010
Math, some would say that is baloney and say skating needs to bring back the discipline of the school figures. I remember a former US champion shocked US skating when she told them what she thinks of thjeir training methods.

BTW, please let me know when we will start seeing better results internationally from the CoP training our skaters are receiving. ;)
To be honest I see little to crow about and Worlds will confirm that, no?

Not for a while. Even today's elite skaters trained in their formative years under 6.0. CoP didn't really come into full effect until the current crop of skaters were already in their senior years. Competitions in 2014 and beyond will really tell what effect CoP-based training has on junior skaters and below.
 

ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
You tell me ;)

My thoughts were more along the lines that each season has x amount of very good to great programs depending to an extent on the quality of the skaters.

Is Yuna a wonderful skater?

Frank Carroll, thinking Yuna might retire after Vancouver said Yuna will be remembered as a great technical skater. He said the system she skated under did not allow her as much freedom as in the past.

Looking at V/M, cant we say they would have been great in any era? Perhaps the mess that was Ice Dancing has been improved by CoP.

I don't know if we see that in singles. Athletes in most sports are better today than they were 10 years ago let alone 20 years ago.

I am not so silly as to think Yuna is a better skater because of CoP. She would have been totally awesome under 6.0 as well and as coach Carroll points out she would have had the freedom to be more expressive.

Hasn't Yuna even said this season is a chance to show a different side of her skating? The pressure of the Olympics has passed and I think Yuna wants to show more artistry and expression , more attention to deatail, and basically what Carroll said was lacking, a chance to show more of herself and how she can skate to music without total dedication to the CoP.

It will be interesting and fun to see her again

1. I don't know 6.0 well enough. I was hoping you'd have more of an answer (so I'll be attending youtube university soon). A more general question for you: if you were being sent to a desert island, and were allowed to take ten high definition programs with you (because this desert island has HDTV capabilities, but no internet or cable), which ten programs would you take?

2. Would V/M have been great in any era? Who knows? What they excel at happens to be COP stuff - the lifts in particular. Another question worth asking is would their greatness have been recognized and rewarded before COP? Few teams medal as early as they did?

3. Would Kim's specific skills be recognized (high jumps, no URs, for example)? Would the fact that she came from a smaller federation hurt more? Would the fact that a generally competitive female skater required all five triples hindered her given her injury issues (I'm not sure if her lack of the loop is related to her back problems, so if I'm wrong, correct me).

4. SkateFiguring mentioned this, but at Canadian Nationals, SF mentioned that even the middle-of-the-pack skaters (ie, those that make it to Nationals, not international events) were doing the complex footwork that COP now asks for.

5. B. Eurosport commentators on Yu Na Kim after the 2007 Worlds SP (both men): "Mindboggling. I have rarely ever seen a singles skater skate to the music as well as that... superb choreography, what a feel she has.... Loved that step sequence, she hit every beat of the music..... Just amazing and look at the expression! Really does feel the music so well. That was a special skate... What we've seen is still difficult to take in." (all the ellipses praise her technical capabilities).

After the Dance Macabre at worlds: "One of the best things I've ever seen..... A masterpiece of a program.... it was from the heart... it was from a special place... there was that feeling for the music that went right through it. You weren't aware that it was a program that was examined, scrutinized for technical content." (I don't have links, but I do have the SP on my computer with their commentary if you wish to verify)

Sonia Bianchetti, someone who hates COP almost as much as you said this after Worlds 09

Yu Na was in a class of her own. She is so natural and elegant. I was impressed by her ability in expressing and interpreting the music, by the harmony of all her movements, by the excellent choreography. Her short program was superb, one of the best programs I can remember in a long time. It made me cry! She made me feel that "artistic emotion" that I have been missing for many years.

This program will go down in skating history like the Bolero of Torvill and Dean, Katarina Witt's Carmen, Kurt Browning’s Casablamca or Yagudin’s Winter. Thank you Yu Na!
(Link)

She also said this at the aforementioned link:
While occasional stars like Yu-Na Kim or Patrick Chan still find a way to meld grace with passion under the new system, they are the exception, not the rule. And this cannot be considered satisfactory.

Maybe it's just me, but by definition, the best are the exception. Was it ever the rule? I realize that many feel COP hinders expression, artistry and freedom, but I tend to believe that the aforementioned artistry and expression weren't as prevalent as people make it out to be.
 

janetfan

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1. I don't know 6.0 well enough. I was hoping you'd have more of an answer (so I'll be attending youtube university soon). A more general question for you: if you were being sent to a desert island, and were allowed to take ten high definition programs with you (because this desert island has HDTV capabilities, but no internet or cable), which ten programs would you take?

2. Would V/M have been great in any era? Who knows? What they excel at happens to be COP stuff - the lifts in particular. Another question worth asking is would their greatness have been recognized and rewarded before COP? Few teams medal as early as they did?

3. Would Kim's specific skills be recognized (high jumps, no URs, for example)? Would the fact that she came from a smaller federation hurt more? Would the fact that a generally competitive female skater required all five triples hindered her given her injury issues (I'm not sure if her lack of the loop is related to her back problems, so if I'm wrong, correct me).

4. SkateFiguring mentioned this, but at Canadian Nationals, SF mentioned that even the middle-of-the-pack skaters (ie, those that make it to Nationals, not international events) were doing the complex footwork that COP now asks for.

5. B. Eurosport commentators on Yu Na Kim after the 2007 Worlds SP (both men): "Mindboggling. I have rarely ever seen a singles skater skate to the music as well as that... superb choreography, what a feel she has.... Loved that step sequence, she hit every beat of the music..... Just amazing and look at the expression! Really does feel the music so well. That was a special skate... What we've seen is still difficult to take in." (all the ellipses praise her technical capabilities).

After the Dance Macabre at worlds: "One of the best things I've ever seen..... A masterpiece of a program.... it was from the heart... it was from a special place... there was that feeling for the music that went right through it. You weren't aware that it was a program that was examined, scrutinized for technical content." (I don't have links, but I do have the SP on my computer with their commentary if you wish to verify)

Sonia Bianchetti, someone who hates COP almost as much as you said this after Worlds 09

(Link)

She also said this at the aforementioned link:

Maybe it's just me, but by definition, the best are the exception. Was it ever the rule? I realize that many feel COP hinders expression, artistry and freedom, but I tend to believe that the aforementioned artistry and expression weren't as prevalent as people make it out to be.

Really good thoughts Pogue. You could start a new thread with point # 1. I would have to think about it because to be honest it is nothingI ever considered before.

V/M made quite an impression on me last season. I thought their OD and FD were beautiful, even timeless.

You seem to bring out some political issues which feels like a different topic. If I have to address it I will say it feels alive and well in the CoP era. I don't think Dance podiums are based on sport yet but a mix of politics and sport. I like watching Dance but really haven;t made much effort to learn the rules.

Interesting that you mentioned a few CoP SP's. I don't really see much to complain about CoP SP's and have issues with all of the requirments/restrictions in the LP.

I think the concept of skating by numbers is more apparent in the LP.

But I am not a fan of the levels. BOP wrote some interesting comments about spins past and present. Nothing beats the classic spin positions for me and a straight back beats a pretzel anytime.

I agree with the comments you quoted about Yuna just a s you know she could have shown something just as special in 6.0 SP's.
 
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ImaginaryPogue

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Jun 3, 2009
Interesting that you mentioned a few CoP SP's. I don't really see much to complain about CoP SP's and have issues with all of the requirments/restrictions in the LP.

I think the concept of skating by numbers is more apparent in the LP.

Yeah, that thought bugs me too. It's definitely a fly in the ointment that is my argument.
 

miki88

Medalist
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Dec 28, 2009
There have been some great programs under the CoP. However, I would argue that there had been more originality in the choreogaphy under the old system. I think the difference is that under CoP, the programs more or less look the same most of the time. But under the old system, skaters had fewer restrictions and thus tended to highlight their particular strengths more (esp in the LP). As a result, the programs were more interesting to watch in general.
 
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