Three kinds of upsetting results

SkateFiguring said:

Do skaters, male and female, need to fight to man up and make figure skating a real sport?

I can guarantee the rating will go through the roof in the US.

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Good point but I'm skeptical of the conclusion. By and large the skating fans on this board are very much appreciative of whatever they can see on TV. Nothing wrong with that, but unlike team sports, those Fans do not play the games as amateurs in a playground setting. Even, in the playgrounds of NYC, you will see ladies playing Tennis and its variations like handball, etc., and enjoying the sport for what it is. Sport is combat. Organized Sports do not come with sequins, but uniforms. Figure Skating comes with showbiz, and for those fans it is enjoyed in a comfortable setting at home, but would they go to a rink and try a waltz jump? Only those few interested in making it their sport would work at it. I hope it's the tricks and not the sequins that make them want to be a part of it.

I blame the media for making it a little girls sport and jumping on it for any illusion to scandal in the US, but even so the adherents continue to love it so it is hanging in there - by a thread.

I think it's too late to bring back the glory days in the US. There are so many new extreme sports to thrill us, and ballet and opera, and films continue to be selling well.

Joesitz said:

I hope it's the tricks and not the sequins that make them want to be a part of it.

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I can tell you that many girls I know have started this sport because of the sequins and the beauty they've seen. I don't know what's on boys' mind?

Kitt said:

"I see it as just his come-back kick. He held onto it, did great compared with his usual skating of last a couple of years. He could be placed ahead of Chan in 5th. That's about it." (Bluebonnet)


He should also be placed ahead of uncharacteristically clunky-landing Lambiel as well, to come in 4th.

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2010 Olympics Men's Short Program:
TSS, TES, PCS, SS, TR, PE, CH, IN, Ded.

1 Plushenko, Russia 90.85 51.10 39.75 8.20 6.80 8.65 7.85 8.25 0.00
2 Lysacek, United States 90.30 48.30 42.00 8.20 7.95 8.60 8.50 8.75 0.00
3 Takahashi, Japan 90.25 48.90 41.35 8.30 7.50 8.55 8.30 8.70 0.00
4 Oda, Japan 84.85 46.00 38.85 8.00 7.15 8.00 7.80 7.90 0.00
5 Lambiel, Switzerland 84.63 41.48 43.15 8.50 8.20 8.65 8.65 9.15 0.00
6 Weir, United States 82.10 42.90 39.20 7.90 7.45 7.90 7.80 8.15 0.00
7 Chan, Canada 81.12 41.42 40.70 8.30 7.85 8.00 8.25 8.30 1.00

2010 Olympics men's free skating:
TSS, TES, PCS, SS, TR, PE, CH, IN, Ded.

1 Lysacek, United States 167.37 84.57 82.80 8.20 7.95 8.50 8.35 8.40 0.00
2 Plushenko, Russia 165.51 82.71 82.80 8.40 7.25 8.80 8.20 8.75 0.00
3 Lambiel, Switzerland 162.09 78.49 83.60 8.30 8.05 8.30 8.45 8.70 0.00
4 Chan, Canada 160.30 79.30 82.00 8.35 7.95 8.20 8.25 8.25 1.00
5 Takahashi, Japan 156.98 73.48 84.50 8.55 8.15 8.50 8.40 8.65 1.00
6 Weir, United States 156.77 79.67 77.10 7.70 7.45 7.80 7.75 7.85 0.00

Over All Result:
1 Lysacek, United States 257.67
2 Plushenko, Russia 256.36
3 Takahashi, Japan 247.23
4 Lambiel, Switzerland 246.72
5 Chan, Canada 241.42
6 Weir, United States 238.87


To see the scores from this competition, the closest one Weir could overcome in LP was Takahashi. But no one was/is willing to admit that even the Weir fans because everyone knows that Takahashi and Weir were not in the same leaque. I said that Weir could pass Chan was giving that Chan could be stripped down the PCS he's got like many were willing to.

Tech scores wise, Lambiel had 1.42 less than Weir in SP, and 1.18 less than Weir in LP. Total 2.60 less than Weir's. But in the final result, Lambiel was 7.85 higher than Weir. Lambiel's both SP and LP, even though didn't perform to his own potential, were top quality in every perspective. Weir's programs, like I said, were empty, not much artistic value except pretty pretty, especially the LP. Clean didn't mean it was enough.

Obviously, the international judges thought so too.

but would they go to a rink and try a waltz jump? Only those few interested in making it their sport would work at it. I hope it's the tricks and not the sequins that make them want to be a part of it.

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HEY! Some of us *points at herself* would LOVE to be able to skate, but we lack balance. It takes everything within us just to walk upright, okay?!

Thanks Bluebonnet. I did not realize how close it was between Dai and Stephane in the final result.

Bluebonnet

You can quote statistics until you are blue in the face; you will never convince me that judges are totally objective in scoring. I think Stephane was held up and I think Johnny shot himself in the foot when weeks before the Olys he criticized Joe Inman.

Let's just agree to revere Yagudin!

About the subject of "sport versus pageant." I think that when people use the word "pageant" to criticize figure skating there are two different implications going on.

First, "pageant" can refer to a public spectacle as contrasted with a serious athletic contest. The Super Bowl is a pageant. (Strangely, football is considered a sport nonetheless.)

The other meaning has to do with judging. When P.T. Barnum brought his show to town, the first thing he did was to bribe the local sheriff by letting the sheriff's daughter win the beauty contest that he held on every stop. In exchange, the sheriff was expected to look the other was while the circus' pickpockets worked the crowd.

In basketball, a big part of the game goes like this. The referee calls a foul at one end. The player stares at the referee with open-mouthed incredulity, shaking his head more in astonishment than anger at such a blatant miscarriage of justice. The referee duly responds by calling a ticky-tack foul at the other end on the next play.

In soccer, players have got the art of flopping down to a science. It is an important part of the players' skill set.

In other words, in many, many, many sports the outcome of the game is not decided by feats of athleticism, but by the interaction between the players and the referees/umpires/judges. This is like a "pageant," but it is a feature of far more sports than just figure skating.

Mathman said:

About the subject of "sport versus pageant." I think that when people use the word "pageant" to criticize figure skating there are two different implications going on.

First, "pageant" can refer to a public spectacle as contrasted with a serious athletic contest. The Super Bowl is a pageant. (Strangely, football is considered a sport nonetheless.)

The other meaning has to do with judging. When P.T. Barnum brought his show to town, the first thing he did was to bribe the local sheriff by letting the sheriff's daughter win the beauty contest that he held on every stop. In exchange, the sheriff was expected to look the other was while the circus' pickpockets worked the crowd.

In basketball, a big part of the game goes like this. The referee calls a foul at one end. The player stares at the referee with open-mouthed incredulity, shaking his head more in astonishment than anger at such a blatant miscarriage of justice. The referee duly responds by calling a ticky-tack foul at the other end on the next play.

In soccer, players have got the art of flopping down to a science. It is an important part of the players' skill set.

In other words, in many, many, many sports the outcome of the game is not decided by feats of athleticism, but by the interaction between the players and the referees/umpires/judges. This is like a "pageant," but it is a feature of far more sports than just figure skating.

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Just like some say skating is so subjective.
Baseball has an umpire who "judge"s pitches and his subjective opinion many times determines a batter and even the game's fate.

The calling of offsides in soccer can be subjective and is not treated the same around the world although the rulebook is the same. Calling penalties, and then issuing yellow or red cards is subjective and differs from league to league even though the rules are the same.

There are rules about diving or any attempt to deceive the refs but the calls are still subjective. What gets called in the first half of a game might not typically be called in the last 10 miutes of the second half or in extra time.

I find skating to be far from the only subjective or judged sport. Callng fouls in basketball is vey subjective. Soccer probably has more controversy than any sport in the world. Then again it is the most popular sport in the world.

Here is something about the differences between baseball and footbal. I wish he would have done something like this about skating

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=om_yq4L3M_I

Bluebonnet said:

Tech scores wise, Lambiel had 1.42 less than Weir in SP, and 1.18 less than Weir in LP. Total 2.60 less than Weir's. But in the final result, Lambiel was 7.85 higher than Weir. Lambiel's both SP and LP, even though didn't perform to his own potential, were top quality in every perspective. Weir's programs, like I said, were empty, not much artistic value except pretty pretty, especially the LP. Clean didn't mean it was enough.

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Lambiel's SP and LP were not top quality in every perspecive. The second half of his SP was wonderful but the first half was just a collection of elements (3 jumping passes + circular step sequence) that were unremarkable on their own and didn't go with the music particularly well either. His LP never came together in a special way at all. There were no really great memorable highlights and he performed very nervously, with mistakes throughout that also detracted from the program. His tech score was overly generous considering the mistakes made and his PCS were absurd.

Weir's programs may not have had choreographic complexity but the moves he did in the LP generally went with the music better than most of the other programs that night and he put HEART (oops, the judges only care about FIRE) into the performance. Lambiel's program actually wasn't complex, btw. As I recall he had less transitions before jumps than Weir (a bit more continuous movement overall, though). Patrick Chan had the most transition-ed program of the event but I don't think the overall choreography was outstanding just because of those transitions and I found his interpretation to be sophomoric. The faults on his jumps outweigh the other superiorities he had over Weir.

I prefer Weir's LP to Lysacek's as well, although I do think Lysacek had a better SP and deserved to be ahead overall because of it. Takahashi and Kozuka were the real champions of the Olympics. They had the most technically difficult LP's, the most choreographically pleasing programs, and the best display of skating skills. Plushenko deserved Bronze on the strength of his jumping.

(I wonder how many times I'll have to reiterate this opinion over the years, wheeee!)

Mathman said:

About the subject of "sport versus pageant." I think that when people use the word "pageant" to criticize figure skating there are two different implications going on.

First, "pageant" can refer to a public spectacle as contrasted with a serious athletic contest. The Super Bowl is a pageant. (Strangely, football is considered a sport nonetheless.)

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MM should get a special award for his 100% belief in Figure Skating. His use of semantics in considering Beauty Pagaent Awards as well as the Little Girls Awards as non sportive is questionable. Both those pageants have Winners like figure skating.

I do think judged sports and pagaents should have 10-15 judges comprised of all backgrounds to get a consensus of the best that day.

The other meaning has to do with judging. When P.T. Barnum brought his show to town, the first thing he did was to bribe the local sheriff by letting the sheriff's daughter win the beauty contest that he held on every stop. In exchange, the sheriff was expected to look the other was while the circus' pickpockets worked the crowd.

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What an example of paegentry! There's a sucker born every minute. That's really sporty. The Circus as we know it is/was a Capitalistic Non Sporting ShowBiz Spectacular without scoring. Maybe we should consider the LP as a spectacular.

In basketball, a big part of the game goes like this. The referee calls a foul at one end. The player stares at the referee with open-mouthed incredulity, shaking his head more in astonishment than anger at such a blatant miscarriage of justice. The referee duly responds by calling a ticky-tack foul at the other end on the next play.

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I presume the Referee is like the Tech Panel. I don't think serious basketball fans (I"m not) would go along with this deterioration of their Sport.

In soccer, players have got the art of flopping down to a science. It is an important part of the players' skill set.

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Like some people watch figure skating on TV every four years, I do the same with Soccer every four years. What iinhell is "flopping down"? I hope it's not like deliberate Falls in skating for partial credit.

In other words, in many, many, many sports the outcome of the game is not decided by feats of athleticism, but by the interaction between the players and the referees/umpires/judges. This is like a "pageant," but it is a feature of far more sports than just figure skating.

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This is your understanding of what Sport is: one example was showbiz Barnum; the anothers were Team sports without judging, and not Solo sports with judging.

By all means, let us know what is the definition of a Pagaent is, and we can change Ms Universe to a Sport.

Joesitz said:

Like some people watch figure skating on TV every four years, I do the same with Soccer every four years. What iinhell is "flopping down"? I hope it's not like deliberate Falls in skating for partial credit.

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Flopping down is when a player deliberatly falls to draw a foul and then proceeds to roll around on the pitch in supposed agony in an attempt to get the other player carded. The Central American teams are very good at this, as is Rinaldo.

silver.blades said:

Flopping down is when a player deliberatly falls to draw a foul and then proceeds to roll around on the pitch in supposed agony in an attempt to get the other player carded. The Central American teams are very good at this, as is Rinaldo.

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Sorry but "flopping" along with shirt grabbing is a European contribution to the sport of soccer/football..

Way back in the 60's South American players had a similar macho attitude still seen in NFL players. No cheating and Iwil lbeat you with fair play.

They learned the theatrical tricks from the Europeans, and it was in the Serie A (Italy) that flopping and shirt grabbing became an "art."

Pele, one of the all-time greats was also considered a truly great sportsman and he never flopped the way we see Euro stars of today like Christiano Ronaldo using deception as part of their bag of tricks.

Tackling from behind is still a German specialty and rarely seen in S. American domestic league games.
Elbows to the face and knees where the sun don't shine is England's contribution to the game they invented.

Without the theatrics and dirty play Brazil and Argentina have teams that would be hard to beat. They have raised football to an artform and it is the Euros who brought in all the undesirable tactics to compete against more skillful players.

Thank you SilverBlades and Hernando for that view of Soccer. I believe the next Worlds Cup will be the same as a Presidential election year. If I'm still breathing I'll watch for the cheating.

Hernando said:

Sorry but "flopping" along with shirt grabbing is a European contribution to the sport of soccer/football..

Way back in the 60's South American players had a similar macho attitude still seen in NFL players. No cheating and Iwil lbeat you with fair play.

They learned the theatrical tricks from the Europeans, and it was in the Serie A (Italy) that flopping and shirt grabbing became an "art."

Pele, one of the all-time greats was also considered a truly great sportsman and he never flopped the way we see Euro stars of today like Christiano Ronaldo using deception as part of their bag of tricks.

Tackling from behind is still a German specialty and rarely seen in S. American domestic league games.
Elbows to the face and knees where the sun don't shine is England's contribution to the game they invented.

Without the theatrics and dirty play Brazil and Argentina have teams that would be hard to beat. They have raised football to an artform and it is the Euros who brought in all the undesirable tactics to compete against more skillful players.

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I'm not saying that the Central American's invented it, but the Caribbean Islands have perfected it. I said nothing about the South Americans, and I agree that both Brazil and Argentina play solid and beautiful soccer which is nice to see from the top teams. And I prefer agressive and violent play to the sneaky tricks. At least it's more honest and easier for the referee to call.

Blades of Passion said:

Weir's programs may not have had choreographic complexity but the moves he did in the LP generally went with the music better than most of the other programs that night and he put HEART (oops, the judges only care about FIRE) into the performance.

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I agree. And for the record, I am no Johnny's Angel - I was actually wishing Lambiel would win gold. However, I realized Johnny's two Olympic programs were very special. Reminds me of Paul Wylie in 1992, unexpected brilliance.

victories that are given on the skater's reputation and not actually how they skated that day are just not fair. Of course they often involve the three types orignially listed by Poodlepal.

Johnny Weir did a beautiful skate to Otono, and imo, he never skated that well again. Stephane won 2 World Championships, albet Plushy did not compete in them. Stephane also was more versatile incorporating different styles in his performances. To me, Johnny had the one style that worked. He was not versatile, imo.

Joesitz said:

Johnny Weir did a beautiful skate to Otono, and imo, he never skated that well again.

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Totally agree. And the best Otono was at 2005 Nationals.

I'm one of the minority who didn't like his Swan Lake that much.