Men's Short Program

Blades of Passion · Apr 27, 2011

wallylutz said:
This is the right way to justify your viewpoint and it is also far more objective. Blades of Passion gets carried away too easily in his own obstination and loses his objectivity.

Psssh, I do not need to list CoP bullet points to justify my viewpoint. My understanding of the sport goes far beyond a few ink blots in the rulebook. The system is there as an attempt to explain. It does not DEFINE with total objectively what great figure skating is.

But as for your remark about me undervaluing Chan's Camel-change-Camel spin, let us look again at your beloved bullet points for spins:

1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good position(s) (including height and air position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure

#1 - No.
#2 - Yes.
#3 - No, the number of rotations is fairly even but he's noticeably slower on the second part of the spin.
#4 - No.
#5 - No (why do you disagree with me saying his Camel position is average? An ideal Camel should have FAR more arch).
#6 - definitely No.
#7 - No, there was average control. If there was "Good control" then he would have been able to move his hands throughout the spin more.
#8 - No.

Lily.Grace · Apr 27, 2011

I totally agree with you Blades of Passion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joubert is always overscored!!!!It's crazy!

Blades of Passion said:
13th at the very best. He certainly did NOT deserve to be in the top 12. His non-jump elements are not strong, his performance and program are not particularly inspiring, and his jumping was weaker than everyone I listed as the top 12 as well. His Quad probably even deserved to be downgraded, making it that much more obvious he did not deserve to be in the top 12. Look at how Kevin Van Der Perren's attempt at the Quad was downgraded. From what I saw, Joubert's certainly was no better rotated. Definitely feels like unfair favoritism muddying the waters there - Joubert doesn't get his Quad downgraded because of his long history of doing that jump, whereas Van Der Perren is not regarded as highly and so he is hammered.

Johnnnn · Apr 27, 2011

Ok, just watched the SPs and some of the replies.
To me, Takahashi's 3T and 3A both looked UR and should've been <.
Not sure about the spins being lv3 but jump wise there's no comparison between him and Chan and I think the tech was VERY generous to Takahashi, to keep him in top 3. Besides one crazy "Canadian" judge who gave 3s and 10s to Chan across the elements (it probably didn't count?), I don't know why so many people here are pissed off.

pangtongfan · Apr 27, 2011

Joubert was probably overscored but who cares really, it is not like he is any contention anymore.

Takahashi is still an excellent artistic skater and I would have had his PCS even higher than Chan but he is a mediocre technical skater now. He will never be competitive with Chan again unless Chan helps him out by mopping up the ice or he does alot of hard work over the summer and shores up his jumps and spins again.

wallylutz · Apr 27, 2011

Johnnnn said:
Ok, just watched the SPs and some of the replies.
To me, Takahashi's 3T and 3A both looked UR and should've been <.
Not sure about the spins being lv3 but jump wise there's no comparison between him and Chan and I think the tech was VERY generous to Takahashi, to keep him in top 3. Besides one crazy "Canadian" judge who gave 3s and 10s to Chan across the elements (it probably didn't count?), I don't know why so many people here are pissed off.

Except there was no Canadian judge on the Men's panel. :sheesh:

Blades of Passion · Apr 27, 2011

Canadian-paid, though.

Johnnnn · Apr 27, 2011

wallylutz said:
Except there was no Canadian judge on the Men's panel. :sheesh:

That's why I said "Canadian" , not Canadian. lol

Mathman · Apr 27, 2011

Blades of Passion said:
He received +1.86 for both his Quad Combination and Triple Axel and +1.5 for his Flip...

It seems to me that there is an across the board GOE grade inflation this year. especially on the hardest elements. A satisfactory quad starts at +1 and goes up from there.

Ilvskating · Apr 27, 2011

Serious Business said:
For all the kvetching about Patrick's +GOE on even his jumps and spins, let's review what the actual rules are:

FOR + 1: 2 bullets
FOR + 2: 4 bullets
FOR + 3: 6 or more bullets

The bullet points for jumps:

1) unexpected / creative / difficult entry
2) clear recognizable steps/free skating movements immediately preceding element
3) varied position in the air / delay in rotation
4) good height and distance
5) good extension on landing / creative exit
6) good flow from entry to exit including jump combinations / sequences
7) effortless throughout
8) element matched to the musical structure

For his 4t/3t, I give him 1, 2, 4, 6, 7, 8, enough for a +3 (the judges give him mostly +2, one +3)

For his 3axel, I give him 4, 5, 6, 8 enough for a +2 (the judges gave him mostly +2)

For his 3flip, I give him 1, 2, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 enough for a +3 (the judges gave him mostly +2, two gave him +3)

Taking into account that he didn't make any errors that would subtract from the +GOE, and individuals may disagree on some of those particular bullet points, the results seem right to me.

The same bullet point system applies to spins, but the bullet points are as follow:

1) good speed or acceleration during spin
2) ability to center a spin quickly
3) balanced rotations in all positions
4) clearly more than required number of revolutions
5) good position(s) (including height and air position in flying spins)
6) creativity and originality
7) good control throughout all phases
8) element matched to the musical structure

For his change of foot/position spin, I give him 2, 3, 5, 7, 8, enough for a +2 (most of the judges gave him +2, two gave him +1 and one gave him +3)

For his flying sit spin, I give him 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 again for a +2 (all but 2 judges gave him +2, with one giving him +1 and the other giving him +3). His entrance into the spin was great, but that's not one of the bullet points.

For his camel spin, I give him 2, 3, 5, 7, 8 one more time for a +2 (all but 3 judges gave him a +1, with three judges giving him a +2)

Once again, I don't have a problem with the results. One can quibble whether he had bullet points 1 and 6 on some of the spins, , which would put them in +3, or take off some bullet points, which would put him at +1. And that's how the results play out. With the spins, Chan may not have the greatest speed or most creative positions, but those are only two of the bullet points. Chan does have the exceptional ability to immediately center and balance his spins. That may not be as flashy to some people, but it's an important thing the COP looks for, too.

That's "serious business"

great job!

pangtongfan · Apr 27, 2011

Mathman said:
It seems to me that there is an across the board GOE grade inflation this year. especially on the hardest elements. A satisfactory quad starts at +1 and goes up from there.

That is because of the controversy over the mens event in Vancouver last year. There was so much complaing about Plushenko not winning with a lackluster performance with mostly shaky jumps, weak spins, and empty choreography, all because he landed a quad in both programs, that ISU was put under pressure to raise the value and worth of quads, and that extends into even the generous GOE given to all landed quads now. So now people get their wish. If a skater who is doing quads also gets huge PCS like Chan, he ends up with a many fall cushion over the field. The people that complain about this now, are largely the ones who brought this one in the first place.

gmyers · Apr 27, 2011

I got no problem with went on! Quads and goe on quads and you do everything else then you should be way ahead! Like Plushenko should have been way ahead! Chan is saying that quads mentally change every single thing about a program. Every second of it is changed! Everything after is harder! That is what Plushenko was saying but people were just like "you're dumb and stupid and 6.0 go away forever" but now Chan is the beneficiary of it! So good!!

Hikaru · Apr 27, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Guys, we're forgetting - Oda counted correctly!

LOL yeah he did, he usually goes math mental in the FS, hopefully he won't this year

Serious Business · Apr 27, 2011

There would be a lot less complaining from some people if A) Chan skated worse (entirely possible, this is his best SP performance by far this season). Or B) Other top skaters skated better (also entirely possible, both Oda and Takahashi posted substantially higher scores previously in the season). It's just that on this day, Chan had the skate of a lifetime while all his closest competitors had below par skates. The gulf in their scores reflect that.

There is no conspiracy here. I don't believe that many judges were colluding or cheating. I don't think the rules that created these particular score differentials are unfair. I'd actually have a problem if we had a system that produced closer scores in a situation like this because that would not be an accurate assessment of what happened on the ice.

This is an unusual men's SP at a Worlds/Olympics level event. I can't think of any other one where the 1st ranked skater skated so wonderfully while all the other top skaters fumbled to varying degrees. It's a coincidence. The free skate will likely be different.

Hikaru · Apr 27, 2011

babayaga said:
I agree that Patric should be in first, but I disagree that he is ahead of Daisuke on Performance/Execution. Nobody can come close to Dai in that mark in my opinion.

I agree with you, when Dai gets into a program, its something out of this world, nobody gets into character as he does. I want to see his SP 'cause I can't imagine why he would get low GOE, I must see it.

I'm not saying that Chan skates bad, but I don't think he is *that* good to give him such a lead, but anyway... I also want to see that SP.

Bluebonnet · Apr 27, 2011

Just watched Joubert, Amodio, Bradley, and Miner's SPs.

Without getting into protocols, I prefer Joubert's SP a lot better than the others, choreographically and performance wise, powerful and energetic. Bradley's jumps were always wild to me. He's so slow everything else (wanted to avoid this point because it's getting old, but I can't.) No way he should be higher than Joubert.

Mathman · Apr 27, 2011

Comparing Takahashi and Chan in performance skills, I don't agree that Patrick lags behind. They just have different styles. Takahashi is more exuberant and Chan is more laid back (especially doing jazz, like Take 5, to Daisuke's rambunctious Latin sparkler.)

herios · Apr 27, 2011

Lily.Grace said:
I totally agree with you Blades of Passion!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Joubert is always overscored!!!!It's crazy!

Not today. His SP is his best he has ever had.

Violet Bliss · Apr 27, 2011

herios said:
Not today. His SP is his best he has ever had.

He missed a jump completely. No combo.

This is a point I brought up before. Just about everyone not named Chan doing quad in SP has to do it as a combo due to lack of step entry. When the quad's landing is not perfect, it hurts the 2nd jump, from downgrade, e.g. Baradley's 2T, to a total miss, e.g. Joubert. Chan has the option of tacking a 3T after his 3F if the 4T landing is not optimal. I was so glad he didn't do a 3F/3T out of habit, because I had developed the habit of seeing that combo. Whew! No Oda was pulled. I might have!

Joesitz (RIP) · Apr 27, 2011

Mrs. P said:
Solids perf from Javier save the step out on the combo. He now has the highest PCS of the night!

One has to realize that some people prefer "Fun" programs moreso than serious. It, imo, contributes to the sissy reputation the sport has. Javier is a good skater who should get his choreograpy away from Morozov who likes to experiment with his male students.

I think Javier would have scored much better than with the Malaguenas of Florent and Brian, if he had used it instead of the kiddish music and costume.

Hikaru · Apr 27, 2011

Mathman said:
Comparing Takahashi and Chan in performance skills, I don't agree that Patrick lags behind. They just have different styles. Takahashi is more exuberant and Chan is more laid back (especially doing jazz, like Take 5, to Daisuke's rambunctious Latin sparkler.)

I guess one could only fair compare them if they were skating to the same music and choreo to see who does it better, but I think Dai-kun has a spark that Chan doesn't, which for me is what gives that little big difference in the performance.

Men's Short Program

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Lily.Grace

Johnnnn

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

wallylutz

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Johnnnn

Mathman

Ilvskating

pangtongfan

Match Penalty

gmyers

Hikaru

Serious Business

Hikaru

Bluebonnet

Mathman

herios

Violet Bliss

Joesitz (RIP)

Hikaru

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