Men's LP
- Thread starter ImaginaryPogue
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"My way" has nothing to do with this discussion. My opinion does. What you fail to realize is that I'm not saying Kozuka's marks should have been higher, just that IMO, Patrick was very generously scored in the sp. Sure, he deserved to win. I don't like the CoP scoring system for a lot of reasons. If you do, enjoy! LOL, re "take out a calculator." I don't need a calculator to watch figure skating, nor to discuss my opinions about the sport. If you do, then I think that speaks for itself.
You get insulted easily, in that case. So much so, you don't seem to see when credit has been fairly given to Chan for his superb skating in Moscow. Lots of posters here, including me, have given credit to Chan (the judges have also given him more than enough credit), but that doesn't mean he or the scoring system are perfect. If you are in love with Chan and his skating, or you are caught up by numbers and world record breaking achievements, be happy and enjoy your nirvana, without expecting everyone to feel the same way you do.
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- Joined
- Aug 18, 2010
This sounds so funny! Thanks for the laugh!
I think it was because he was in the last group. Judges just don't think they can be an 7 on one thing and a 4 on another! If you are 7 in one thing you are 7 in all things. If you are 8 all 8 - 9 all 9. It's only in rare cases and a very famous or infamous case did a skater get 8's in some PCS and 5 in another. You know the case and everything. It got so tiresome! Plus the definte hometown bonus-or country Bonus.
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2010
Thanks!
Love this LP!Kozuka is the most handsome Japanese male skater I've ever seen. Cute face and beautifully proportioned body. Long-lined, lyrical style.:yes: He may not have the excitement of Chan's program, but his is the one that could calm you down and take you to a fairy land.
ITA. Kozuka, Abbot, Chan, these are the three that has great skating skills and superb edge quality. In my opinion, Chan's natural musicality is the weaker one among these three but he has good choreograph that helps him to overcome that. Abbot has good programs too but his consistensy is a problem, needs mental strength to step up. Kozuka has understated elegance but when it is understated, it is really difficult to shine through the crowded field. I think Kozuka need to have better costumes to show off body lines and he still does need work on extentions ( take ballet) to extend his lines further. He is very good already but he could be so much better. He is one of the Japanese skater that can really work on classical style and be good at it, just one more step further from being lyrical. I think Hanyu is another, with extremely long lines and great musicality. So happy Kozuka stepped up and got the silver, very beautiful skate, perfection.
Chan did great, so did Kozuka. These two should be really proud of themselves and looking forward to more to come.
Chan deserved to win by a HUGE margin no doubt. But I think its PERFECTLY fair to call into question, Patrick's 9 point PCS lead over Kozuka in the free skate. I don't think thats fair. Its more about the judges giving Kozuka credit for Kozuka's skills rather than rallying against Chan.
The fact that the difference between Artur and Kozuka was 5 points only illustrates it. This. I'm sorry but skating skills wise, Kozuka/Chan are far more closer together than Kozuka and Artur are.
It feels like Chan and Chan alone gets credit for having amazing skating skills. If they want to give Patrick huge credit for his skating skills-well fine. But also give others like Taka credit too. Its only fair.
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So what do you think of Kozuka's TR, PE, CH and IN vs. Chan's in the LP? Assuming they are fairly comparable in SS, let's dissect the other 4 components. So, I am interested to hear how you break down the other 4 components to support your claim that the 9 points overall lead in PCS is too large given that your comment did not address these aspects that are also part of the consideration. Care to take us through your thought process?
- Joined
- Jun 16, 2010
PCS was ridiculous. A bigger gap between Kozuka and Gashinski than Chan and Kozuka is ridiculous. Kozuka should have been quite close to Chan in PCS, and Gashinski nowhere near Kozuka.
Well one thing I will clearly state is Kozuka deserves higher Interpertation scores than Chan does. Because Kozuka is by far more musical.
Your answer is unsatisfactory because it's a personal statement of preference with no evidence to back up your claim. I can't see your thought process at all. How do you show Kozuka is more musical and why does that impact IN? You need to do a lot better than that to convince anyone that your original claim re: 9 points gap is valid as opposed to just whining.
Do we really need to get into it how Patrick can skate through the music a bit. Its not just me Wally saying it, its plenty of people who have said it. Kozuka is more musical.
- Joined
- Jan 7, 2011
I could be wrong, but I am pretty sure Kozuka got the second highest PCS ever awarded in figure skating. The people who want it higher do so because they want it to be closer to Chan's, so it is about Chan as always (it's a Chan's world, baby). That is a perfectly fair point to raise, as the PCS are worded as being comparative in some ISU rules and memos. But let's be honest that it isn't about Kozuka alone for people who thinks his PCS should be even higher.
I disagree. While Kozuka has exceptional basics and skated a very intricate program with unusual command, he's still not on Chan's level in either ice command or the intricacy of the program. Don't get me wrong, they are both in the stratosphere, and unmatched by anyone else in this competition, but it is necessary to compare them for the discussion at hand.
Then there are parts of Kozuka's presentation I find to be outright below par. His movement is very reserved. Most of his movement stays close to the core, even if he extends his arms he keeps them close to the body. And if he's not extending them, the arms just look limp. And with this desire to contract his body, even his flourishes look hesitant, unexpansive. It really detracts from a dancer's ability to fully express movement, emotion and music.
Of course, this is just one little con among the many pros of Kozuka's skating, but it's one that affects a few of the PCS criteria, and when we're in the super nitpickery stage of exactly how superhumanly high his PCS should be, it's relevant. Therefore, I'm perfectly fine with him having the second highest PCS ever for his performance here. Truly a horrible shame, but I'm sure he'll recover.
I disagree. While Kozuka has exceptional basics and skated a very intricate program with unusual command, he's still not on Chan's level in either ice command or the intricacy of the program. Don't get me wrong, they are both in the stratosphere, and unmatched by anyone else in this competition, but it is necessary to compare them for the discussion at hand.
Then there are parts of Kozuka's presentation I find to be outright below par. His movement is very reserved. Most of his movement stays close to the core, even if he extends his arms he keeps them close to the body. And if he's not extending them, the arms just look limp. And with this desire to contract his body, even his flourishes look hesitant, unexpansive. It really detracts from a dancer's ability to fully express movement, emotion and music.
Of course, this is just one little con among the many pros of Kozuka's skating, but it's one that affects a few of the PCS criteria, and when we're in the super nitpickery stage of exactly how superhumanly high his PCS should be, it's relevant. Therefore, I'm perfectly fine with him having the second highest PCS ever for his performance here. Truly a horrible shame, but I'm sure he'll recover.
Just curious, would you mind showing your thought process in determining that Chan is more musical than Kozuka?
:lol: Yep, I'm not saying that Kozuka is better than everything than Patrick, I'm not even saying that Kozuka deserved higher PCS than Patrick, I'm just saying Patrick's not 9 points-i.e 2 falls better. I'm sorry Wally, but Chan shouldn't be given that kind of cushion of someone as good as Kozuka is. Not when both skate well.
Especially when Kozuka is only given 5 point cushion over Artur.
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I am not interested in other people's hearsay and figure skating is not a popularity contest. I am interested in your thought process, which I don't have to agree with but I want to see your logic and whether it would stand up under scruitny even if I may disagree with it. There is no right or wrong answer in the judging of figure skating. Until you can provide an explanation based on the rules as to why the gap of 9 points was unjustified, I am afraid I have to treat your comment as a statement of personal preference, nothing more.
Do you mean you are interested to see my thoughts on the IN comparison of these two skaters since being "musical" is not a term I have used?
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- Sep 14, 2008
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The standings of the top 3 were fair but he was very unfairly overscored regardless. Patrick Chan's PCS of 91 is an abomination to the art of figure skating. Having amazing skating skills and putting transitions before jumps doesn't mean you have good choreography or are interpreting the music or are giving an emotionally resonant performance. The PCS Chan received is what a mature virtuoso performance such as the one Lambiel gave at 2007 Worlds would deserve. Chan came nowhere near that. He was technically astounding, sure, but that is supposed to be separate from PCS.
I would also cite Jeremy Abbott at the 2008 GPF as an example of a note-perfect performance that would have deserved such a high PCS. It was far and away superior in its musicality and originality. Chan's transitions were in fact not as difficult as Abbott's either - let's see Chan do a series of reverse direction turns and then stay on that one foot before going immediately into a breathtaking Triple Axel; or multiple full-body dips in both directions before a Triple Loop. You should also look to Matt Savoie for someone who did painstakingly difficult transitions into jumps and would have deserved 9's for that mark.
The GOE grades were utter nonsense. Chan's first Quad was 1/4 turn short and landed on the inside edge. He received +1.29 points for that effort. His first Triple Lutz was small and a bit jerky on the landing. Several judges gave it +2 GOE. He got a bunch of +3's for his spinning, which I absolutely will not go into the detailing of breaking down how wrong that is. If Patrick Chan's combination spin is worth +3 then Lambiel's combination spin from 2007 Worlds should have received a +6 and been worth higher base value to boot. Oops, but it's capped at +3...hence why GOE shouldn't be handed out like candy. +GOE means the skater went above and beyond the satisfactory execution of the element and a +3 means it was one the best best elements OF ALL TIME.
I believe that both Kozuka and Gachinski were overscored on the PCS as well, but not as much as Chan. And their tech marks were mostly fair as well (although still a bit too high IMO). Kozuka's performance was one of the most technically perfect in the history of the sport.
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Kozuka's arm movements perfectly fit the choreography for dance in both SP and LP. And he does express movement and music great. This is practically comparing apples and oranges which again proves how subjective PCS for the most part are. That's why I share some people's opnion that while Chan's win is not questionable, 10 points or even 9.5 points is stretching too far. I would have PCS for Chan and Kozuka in 2 point difference range and I would let the judges to decide who should get 2 points more between those two. Personally for me Kozuka lost by one quad, even though ironically he got higher TES for simply executing those techs much better than Chan.
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