Ladies - Short Program | Page 33 | Golden Skate

Ladies - Short Program

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I miss Lady sp due to meeting, I just has a chance to watch the video.

I'm so happy with Miki result, I think she will be 5-6 points lower than the leader but it turn out to be very close competition. She gave an interview that her body condition is not good, and I think that reflect on her performance today. This is not Miki's best, I feel that she begin to get try in the second half of the program. This make me worry whether she will de able to deliver the long program. I will cheer her with all my heart.

I forgot to comment that even her technique and skating is not in top-form, but I think the presentation today is really good, May be one of the best that I have seen from her.

For Yuna, I don't mind much about her score or placement, my only complain is that she should receive -3 for her Lutz. I'm think +1 for her lutz was a mistake as the same judge give her 0 GOEs on her combo. However, I feel a bit disappoint that she is not as great as she was, may be the result of nervousness?.

By the way, I think the one who should get highest PCS and was underscored is Alisa. Everything in her performance is just right. The most beautiful skating skills, spin and program of all ladies. Hope she will do the LP that judge can't resist to place her on podium.

Lastly, I'm so glad for Leonova. I used to think she is underscore, but this time she delivered and get to skate in last group!!!. I don't know if this is caused by home field adventage and she gave a good skate and I'm so happy for her.:yay:

p.s.Poor Mao. But I will never count her out, in 2007 she also fall behind the leader by ten point and then gave fantastic skate in LP. She can do it this time too.
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 16, 2009
I have a comment concerning step sequences. I loved how Alissa's steps were built in her program. They came 'unnoticed', as they were not a seperate element, but a part of whole performance. They matched the music without any excessive, rigid body movements - this is, unfortunately a rarity today. In contrasts - Rachel's steps. I enjoy a lot her EoE SP, but the steps are a bit too much - all over the place without any connection with music.


I completely agree! Footwork can be gorgeous, but it's so rare these days to find skaters (and their choreographers) who integrate it into both the music and the skating. Nothing against Rachael, but East of Eden is such a flowing piece, and that footwork is not relevant to the music. Whereas Alissa's short this year is a tremendously well-integrated piece.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
A mohawk is a step as specified by the rules, and she changes edges a couple of times before entering that. It's not an intricate entry into the 3lutz, but she absolutely did do her 3lutz right after executing a step as defined by the rules.

LOL, what exactly are you watching? Yu-Na had absolutely no transition at all before her intended 3Lutz combination, as per usual (not a bad thing, it just is what it is). Once that jumping pass failed to be a combination because of the step out, it became the solo jump of her program. Thus, it deserved -3 GOE across the board. I pointed out to higher ups a couple years ago that judges were not applying this rule properly and ISU specifically made it a point in the rule revisions for this season to remind judges that they must apply the -GOE in the Short Program when there is no transition before the solo jump.

Judges are sometimes still not doing it, though. Very frustrating. Nobunari Oda's 4Toe with a step out at this Championship (with no transition beforehand) similarly only receive -2 GOE from the majority of judges rather than -3 GOE.

The most blatant case of violating the rule this season was at U.S. Nationals where Doug Razzano did a 4Toe as his planned solo jumping pass and went into it without absolutely no transition at all, with a full rink-length setup. NONE of the judges gave it -GOE. The rule is there for a reason. The point of the solo jump is that it has a transition before it. The Short Program is specifically testing the ability of the skater to perform that skill. If a deduction isn't applied, like at U.S Nationals with Razzano, then difficult jumps in the SP wouldn't be as big of a deal because skaters wouldn't have to worry about putting them in combination or having extra movements beforehand that make the program more difficult.
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
I am sorry for my ignorance, but maybe you can enlighten me further. Where in the rules does it say that a solo jump without entry transition automatically deserves -3 GOE?
 

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
I am sorry for my ignorance, but maybe you can enlighten me further. Where in the rules does it say that a solo jump without entry transition automatically deserves -3 GOE?

ISU communication 1611, IV. Updated Guidelines in establishing GOE for errors
in Short Program and Free Skating and it actually stated that " a jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements".


Now, I have a question, can turns be used as step preceding jump or not?
 
Last edited:

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
I am sorry for my ignorance, but maybe you can enlighten me further. Where in the rules does it say that a solo jump without entry transition automatically deserves -3 GOE?

In communication 1611 (clicking on that will likely make you download a PDF file), under section IV, under the table "errors for which the GOE must be in the minuses", it says SP: SP: No required steps/movements preceding jump, -3. Elsewhere in the rulebook, defining step sequences, a mohawk is listed as a step.

We can also refer to the ISU Special Regulations and Rules for Single, Pairs and Ice Dancing (clicking on that will make you download a huge PDF file at painfully slow speeds). Under the requirements for the senior ladies short program, it says:
Triple jump immediately preceded by connecting steps and/or other comparable Free Skating movements
It would seem even steps aren't required, some sort of "comparable" movement will do. I am not finding further clarification on the ISU site. But based on what I've read, it would be a real stretch to say that Yuna's steps and movements immediately preceding the 3lutz don't fulfill the steps/movement requirement. They may not fulfill the bullet point for +GOE given to a "unexpected / creative / difficult entry" before a jump, but that doesn't mean they deserve -3 either. So unless the ISU rules have been modified by a memo that I didn't find (entirely possible), I think the mostly -2's (which translates to a -1.5 in the actual score) for Yuna's 3lutz was not unreasonable.
 
Last edited:

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Here is Yuna's SP.
Watching her long entry into the intended opening combo jump I am not sure if I see any steps, turns or TR.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieS_4ct5vQM

Aside from that I thought Yuna was still pretty impressive today considering she has not competed in over a year.
 
Last edited:

treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
In communication 1611 (clicking on that will likely make you download a PDF file), under section IV, under the table "errors for which the GOE must be in the minuses", it says SP: SP: No required steps/movements preceding jump, -3. Elsewhere in the rulebook, defining step sequences, a mohawk is listed as a step.

We can also refer to the ISU Special Regulations and Rules for Single, Pairs and Ice Dancing (clicking on that will make you download a huge PDF file at painfully slow speeds). Under the requirements for the senior short program, it says:

It would seem even steps aren't required, some sort of "comparable" movement will do. I am not finding further clarification on the ISU site. But based on what I've read, it would be a real stretch to say that Yuna's steps and movements immediately preceding the 3lutz don't fulfill the steps/movement requirement. They may not fulfill the bullet point for +GOE given to a "unexpected / creative / difficult entry" before a jump, but that doesn't mean they deserve -3 either. So unless the ISU rules have been modified by a memo that I didn't find (entirely possible), I think the mostly -2's (which translates to a -1.5 in the actual score) for Yuna's 3lutz was not unreasonable.

Just my curiousity, does this mean in your understanding, any movement can be used an an requirement step except the moves that are specifily written by ISU?
 

Bartek

On the Ice
Joined
Dec 29, 2009
In communication 1611 (clicking on that will likely make you download a PDF file), under section IV, under the table "errors for which the GOE must be in the minuses", it says SP: SP: No required steps/movements preceding jump, -3. Elsewhere in the rulebook, defining step sequences, a mohawk is listed as a step.

We can also refer to the ISU Special Regulations and Rules for Single, Pairs and Ice Dancing (clicking on that will make you download a huge PDF file at painfully slow speeds). Under the requirements for the senior ladies short program, it says:

It would seem even steps aren't required, some sort of "comparable" movement will do. I am not finding further clarification on the ISU site. But based on what I've read, it would be a real stretch to say that Yuna's steps and movements immediately preceding the 3lutz don't fulfill the steps/movement requirement. They may not fulfill the bullet point for +GOE given to a "unexpected / creative / difficult entry" before a jump, but that doesn't mean they deserve -3 either. So unless the ISU rules have been modified by a memo that I didn't find (entirely possible), I think the mostly -2's (which translates to a -1.5 in the actual score) for Yuna's 3lutz was not unreasonable.

Sorry but Yu-Na didn't do a mohawk before her lutz. It was a long entry without any steps/turns. The only "movement" she did was "crossing" her legs right before going into an outside edge but I'm not sure if it counts as "skating movement".
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
Just my curiousity, does this mean in your understanding, any movement can be used an an requirement step except the moves that are specifily written by ISU?

I don't know what's deemed ineligible to fulfill the steps/movement requirement before a jump. I just read a whole pile of ISU communications and found nothing relevant there. I would presume that no movement at all, like a long held gliding edge should trigger the penalty.

And on rewatching Yuna's SP, she doesn't do a mohawk, she just changed the feet on the ice by crossing and uncrossing them after a few edge changes right before the 3lutz without changing the direction she's facing. It's not particularly intricate, but it certainly isn't a long held edge or stroking right before the jump. If those ISU rules I read stand as they are, I don't see why they wouldn't qualify as steps/movement immediately preceding the triple jump.

Sorry but Yu-Na didn't do a mohawk before her lutz. It was a long entry without any steps/turns. The only "movement" she did was "crossing" her legs right before going into an outside edge but I'm not sure if it counts as "skating movement".

You're right, I remembered it wrong. I rewatched that bit even as you posted.
 
Last edited:

ks777

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 15, 2003
Hi Serious Business, I have a question.. who is your Avatar? Is that a famous skater? I been curious!
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
To clarify, here's what Yuna did after stroking (I hope I didn't get anything else wrong!): first she glides on her right outside edge, then she does a cross chassé to get on her left inside edge, then she does a curve with a change of edge to get on her left outside edge and immediately picks in for the 3lutz. Both the chassé and a curve with a change of edge are listed as steps in in communication 1611. So I think Yuna should be safe for that requirement.

Edited to add: they're specifically listed as steps for all purposes in figure skating judging under rule 604 Special Regulations and Technical rulebook for judging skating. And it turns out "movement" refers to thinks like a spread eagle or a lunge.

So now I'm very sure Yuna didn't deserve an extra -.6 off on her 3lutz step out. :p

ks777, it is Madison Chock and her very expressive and beautiful face. Tinymavy15 got it exactly right. It's from her Cabaret FD from US nationals.
 
Last edited:

Tigger

Final Flight
Joined
Jan 18, 2007
Due to me being a huge Royalist, my attention today has been obviously elsewhere and I'm not apologizing for it. Been waiting for this day ever since things started getting serious between William and Catherine and the day did not disappoint.

Got to see the SD's on Bold, but missed the Ladies SP's. Watching the packaged piece on the Main CBC Network and our neighbour popped in as Cynthia was being interviewed by Brenda Irving and...

Did I hear Cynthia right? She's decided to call it a career on the Amateur Scene after tomorrow?

I was just heading out of my room when that took place, so am wondering if I heard right.

Sooooo happy for Alissa and Miki!!!

Haven't seen Yu Na yet, but that's about to happen. I'm worried about Mao. I can't remember ever seeing her looking so unhealthy before. Scary that is.
 

YunaBliss

On the Ice
Joined
May 11, 2010
OK, I read the rules very carefully. And it seems to me that this case was "stepping out of landing in a jump" which suggest -2 or -3 negative GOE, with the requirement that no matter the positive GOE, the net final GOE must be negative.

The only errors that MUST result in the net final GOE being -3 are the first two errors stated in the chart - i.e. one or more less revolution than required or combo constituting only one jump in SP (which doesn't apply to Yuna because she adjusted to do 3F-2T)

The third item on the list, "no required steps/movement preceding jump", I think, applies only if the skater doesn't perform the planned steps/movements before executing a planned solo jump (otherwise, according BoP's argument, Yuna would have gotten negative GOE even if she perfectly executed 3Lz-3T), and even then, it just requires the final net GOE to be negative, rather than being -3. (Hence, the difference between writing "GOE-3" for the first two errors mentioned above, and just writing "-3" for this error).

Is this wrong? The rules are far from being clearly written, so I am definitely interested in listening to others' opinion.
 
Last edited:

MikiAndoFan#1

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 30, 2009
I'm so happy for Miki, Yu-Na, Alissa and Ksenia! They were great, but too bad Yu-Na stepped out of her 3Lz. I'm worried about Mao, I hope she brings it tomorrow. And Carolina, too. :yay:
 
Joined
Jul 11, 2003
I'm confused about the posts being so happy. I am far from being overwhelmed by the nothing-new Ladies event. They skated in their usual manner
 
Top