Did the USFS Send the Right Mens Team to Worlds?

Mathman -

Serious Business, I dislike your assessment of the situation. In my mind, any skater who is good enough to win a Senior Grand Prix medal should get to go to Worlds. The U.S. had 4 Men who won Senior Grand Prix medals this past season, plus Richard Dornbush who won the JGPF and Ross Miner who came on very strong at the end of the season.

Mathman said:

IMHO it is a middle-sized goal that can help us keep our spirits up until we can summon the wherewithal to tackle greater challenges.

Like when the young riders from Rohan, from Westfold far away, or husbandmen from Lossmarch were unmanned at the sight of the gates of Mordor. So Aragorn, more in pity than in anger, sent them away to the southwest to seize Cair Andros from the Enemy.

And thus they took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their measure that they could turn to. :yes:

Click to expand...

LOL you nerd.

But I don't think it's a middle-sized goal at all. In fact, I think getting 3 slots is actually one of the tougher things to do. Look at this worlds, only Japan managed to get 3 spots for next season. Canada claimed gold and Russia got bronze, but they both still only get 2 spots.

Blades of Passion, that would require that the US have 6 spots for worlds, which no country has. Yes, yes, it would be nice if everybody who had an outside shot at the medals could attend worlds. And indeed, I made a pretty extensive proposal for expanding the spot allotment system based on GP results that would give the US some of those spots. Or even doing away with nation-based spots altogether. But we're not living with such a system.

In the current system, spots are limited because of resources and time. Every federation is guaranteed the right to send one competitor/team in each discipline if they have one who fulfill the minimum scores. Is this right more important than the right of all skaters, even second tier ones like Mahbanoozadeh and Mroz to have an outside shot at the medals? You might say yes, but I say no. To me, it's more important that the exchange of figure skating knowledge and experience is spread as far wide internationally as possible. If Bin Yao never got the chance to attend worlds repeatedly and finish dead last, he'd never have gained the experience and knowledge to coach skaters like Shen/Zhao who would wind up revolutionizing the discipline. That is one extreme example, but there are tinier exchanges going on all the time. Smaller federations need an incentive to support the sport, too. Their skaters deserve a moment in the spotlight. It does come at the expense of second tier skaters in bigger federations, but that's a sacrifice I'm willing to live with in this system.

:thumbsup: Serious Business.

Well if the Worlds is a composite of the best world-wide contenders, there is a case for allowing only the best regardless of Federation to be an entrant for the Worlds. There are many other competitions for new skaters to get their feet wet, and when they are ready send them to Worlds. The alternative would be to have a special worlds for skaters who have never skated in a major competition.

I never saw such indignation about some of the best male skaters and ice dancers in the world having to stay home in Russia/Soviet Union in their hay days or someone like Hanyu and Suzuki denied a chance at Worlds this year.

SkateFiguring said:

...Suzuki denied a chance at Worlds this year.

Click to expand...

I'll throw a little indignation into the pot. Not that she should have gone ahead of Murakami, but still...couldn't she represent the Kuril Islands or something? (No offense to Russia, of course. )

But, Serious Business, every country would still be able to send 1 skater to Worlds if none qualify based upon their actual competitive achievements. The only thing that would change by allowing more skaters from competitively crowded countries to compete is the number of entries into the Qualification Round and Short Program (and the overall quality of skaters who eventually move on to the final LP, as the field would be deeper).

If YAO BIN had competed at the 2011 World Championships, he would have skated in the Qualification Round and failed to move on to the Short Program. If YAO BIN had competed at the 2011 World Championships and more skaters from competitively crowded countries had been in the Qualification Round, he simply would have lost to a greater number of people and still failed to move on.

There's no reason why talented skaters shouldn't get the chance just because of the country they are from.

SkateFiguring said:

I never saw such indignation about some of the best male skaters and ice dancers in the world having to stay home in Russia/Soviet Union in their hay days or someone like Hanyu and Suzuki denied a chance at Worlds this year.

Click to expand...

There's plenty of indignation, you likely just wouldn't have heard about it if you lived in America. The internet has changed everything and people are becoming less ignorant. It's time to stop dividing things like this by country. A lot of skaters don't train in the country they skate for anyway.

I think the question being raised: Can we claim a true World Champion if all the Best Skaters are not in contention?

Blades of Passion said:

But, Serious Business, every country would still be able to send 1 skater to Worlds if none qualify based upon their actual competitive achievements. The only thing that would change by allowing more skaters from competitively crowded countries to compete is the number of entries into the Qualification Round and Short Program (and the overall quality of skaters who eventually move on to the final LP, as the field would be deeper).

Click to expand...

I am fully in favor of that! I proposed (what I think) is a pretty solid system of giving extra slots to countries before based on GP ranking. I'm just saying that under the current system, it's really not particularly unfair or awful that the US, like all other countries in the world except for Japan, only gets two spots at Worlds for men's. That the US has no reason to kick itself too hard for losing a spot this season under this system we have.

Mathman said:

IMHO it is a middle-sized goal that can help us keep our spirits up until we can summon the wherewithal to tackle greater challenges.

Like when the young riders from Rohan, from Westfold far away, or husbandmen from Lossmarch were unmanned at the sight of the gates of Mordor. So Aragorn, more in pity than in anger, sent them away to the southwest to seize Cair Andros from the Enemy.

And thus they took new hope, hearing of a manful deed within their measure that they could turn to. :yes:

Click to expand...

+3 GOE for linking together LOTR and skating. And for being awesome. AT LIFE.

Serious Business said:

If Dornbush, Miner or Jason Brown picks up a consistent quad, that'd be 2, but that's a big if (although chances are one of them could do it, right?).

Click to expand...

Jason Brown needs a 3A first.

mskater93 said:

Jason Brown needs a 3A first.

Click to expand...

Deliberate omission from me. I think if Brown got a consistent quad he'd be competitive even without a consistent 3axel, as skaters like Lambiel and Chan have proven. An all around great skater + a consistent quad can more than make up for the lack of a 3axel. It's one of the reasons I'm optimistic about Brown's future. He can pick up the 3axel and/or quad to take himself to the next level. And it's not always a linear progression that a skater learns the 3axel before the quad.

SkateFiguring said:

I never saw such indignation about some of the best male skaters and ice dancers in the world having to stay home in Russia/Soviet Union in their hay days or someone like Hanyu and Suzuki denied a chance at Worlds this year.

Click to expand...

Actually, there have been many non-Japanese posters who have lamented that Suzuki had to stay home and other great Japanese skaters before her.

Personally, I think it would be great for the country quota thing to be dropped and let skaters qualify on their own rankings and merits. I definitely think it's a shame and not very sporty that skaters like Suzuki, Jeremy, Adam and Mirai had to stay home while much much lesser skaters get to go.

I think Joe is right to ask whether a true world champion is crowned when not all the best skaters are there. (Okay, in practice Miki and Yuna would probably still have been top two and Patrick Chan still would have won. But you never know ... it's hardly inconceivable that Mirai would have been a strong medal contender.)

I guess I should have said "so much indignation". But switching the discussion to ISU allowing more skaters per nation according to individual ability is really irrelevant to the subject of this thread. US got to send 3 men, more than most other nations but the best finish is 8th place. What right has the US earned and what better results can be expected for it to send more skaters? Russia was the one missing out the most in this Worlds Men event. And Japan may be more entitled to complain about the limited numbers of skaters they could send for the Single events.

I definitely think it's a shame and not very sporty that skaters like Suzuki, Jeremy, Adam and Mirai had to stay home while much much lesser skaters get to go.

Click to expand...

These skaters didn't get to go because their federations didn't pick them. ISU is not responsible for that.

Yes, some lesser skaters from less developed federations/nations get to go, but it's for the good of the sport. Much has been discussed on another thread about how the team should be more important than the right and personal ambition of an individual skater. Well, the same reasoning and considerations apply to the sport of figure skating.

I think Joe is right to ask whether a true world champion is crowned when not all the best skaters are there.

Click to expand...

The true world champion is always crowned with or without quota. The best in the world would have passed all tests to be there. I would say usually the medalists and other top finishers are rightfully there too. People can then choose to engage themselves in whichever "wusrobbed" debates they want, like what has gone on for a 6th placer in the Olympics.

Indignation doesn't do it for me.

I believe the results of any world championship sport is predicated on the BEST in the World, otherwise why have a Worlds? The limiting of entrants by the Federations is based on the organizational methods of the ISU. Such limitations do not prove the BEST result conclusively.

However, I see the point in the organization for some sort of limitations. Figure Skating like other sports attracts the instinctive nature of competing of "I can do that better". And for little girls that attracts many with dress-up as well. The little boys are attracted to jumps. The two together make an enormous amount of participants which when the time comes to a Worlds championship, the number of entrants must be controlled for obvious reasons.

It's very sad that Hanyu and Suzuki as well as Jeremy, Adam and Mirai were not there. All five were medal portentialists. My only suggestion of amend this would be to create slots among the BigSix each to fill 3 entrants. Not all of the BigSix have 3 skaters to enter, to allow talented skaters like the above mentioned five fill the slots for a more conclusive BEST result. However, I don't see that happening and we have to live with the limitations which do make sense, imo.

I like Dornbush, he stood out from juniors and I think also crowd and judges like him or will like him in the future. I think it is good they sent him. Havent seen the rest videos yet.