Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury?

Layfan · May 2, 2011

jaylee said:
I understand the individual points you are making. But I looked back at my original post, and I said it was cruel for Phil Hersh and Frank Carroll to be doing this. Really, Frank Carroll bragging about Mirai's triple axels and triple lutz/triple loop and how she smoked Rachael/Alissa at 4CCs, this is necessary? There's no way to prove Mirai's readiness, so we have no way of knowing if Carroll is just hyping Mirai up. I think it is unnecessary piling on Rachael for a situation that can't be changed. I think it's inappropriate for Carroll to be saying that.

By the way Frank, had Mirai only rotated her double axel last year before falling in the LP at Worlds, we would have gotten 3 spots thanks to Mirai and Rachael last year, and Mirai would have been able to go this year.

Actually, now that I think about it...didn't Mirai also skate at Worlds last year with an injury? It was only diagnosed afterwards as a stress fracture, but I believe she felt the pain already by Worlds. Did anyone blame Mirai for not realizing the injury earlier and alerting Ashley Wagner? Did anyone flog Mirai the way Phil and Frank Carroll is now for skating injured?

Hmm. I think Mirai's injury came much later. She seemed perfectly fit and trained for worlds and it was just nerves that got to her in the LP. I could be wrong.

In any case, yeah, I can't help but take Carroll's boasting about Mirai's jumps with a grain of salt. It's an easy thing to say when there's no way for anyone to disprove it. Rachael controversy aside, I certainly hope it's true that Mirai is landing 3-3s. But we'll see next year. And while I wish it didn't come at Rachael's expense, it's nice to see Frank going out to bat for and hyping up his skater again rather than publicly raking HER through the mud, too.

Sports can be mean and tough and dirty and figure skating is hardly an exception. I hope Rachael and Mirai can concentrate on their skating this summer and that this doesn't become a distraction.

Mathman · May 2, 2011

You skate. You win or you lose. Bring on 2012!

FlattFan · May 2, 2011

Rachael earned her spot. If she wants to give it to Bebe, she can do whatever she wants. Being an alternate is just that, an alternate. Unless Rachael can't walk to the ice rink, there's no reason for an alternate to step in.
Frank Carroll is a bag of sadness and old fart. Time is up, grandma.
Phil Hersh, who is he to tell Rachael or anyone to do anything. Someone told him to go to hell, he hasn't yet. Maybe he should explain that.

janetfan · May 2, 2011

Mathman said:
You skate. You win or you lose. Bring on 2012!

Skate with a broken leg and you rarely win.

R.D. · May 2, 2011

^ boom!

Krislite · May 2, 2011

Hernando said:
If Rachael has earned the right despite never winning a major ISU medal then I believe Frank as the coach of many champions has more than earned the right to speak.

I get such a kick out of the fans here who argue that skating is a real sport but whenever we see something edgy and feelings begin to run high they want to backtrack and pretend skating is a hobby for little girls. A "pageant" so to speak.

I don't mean that personally towards you Krislite but it is a general observation. Frank Carroll is not a coach of little kids preparing for a spelling bee.

He is a demanding and experienced coach with decades in figure skating. If he is upset I believe there are good reasons for it.

A lack of professionalism and courtesy from Tom Z are good enough reasons for starters. Perhaps he wonders why Mirai was practicing at all if nothing short of death was going to let them be notified to possibly be ready.

OK. Trash talk and boasting is common in sports. But I never think it's absolutely fine. I think it just shows lack of class and maturity. I'm not at all worried about Rachael's feelings because she's a "girl" or because I think figure skating is a "pageant". I thought he was simply unnecessarily cruel. It wouldn't have made a difference if Rachael was a man playing rugby.

He has of course every right to speak his mind about this situation. But we have conversely every right to counter or criticize what he says in public.

And there is one thing I agree with you guys here, and I'm sorry I haven't made this clear, I believe Rachael and her coach should have notified USFSA about her injury. What I don't agree with is that Rachael should have simply withdrawn and let Mirai take her place if she was feeling confident about her ability to deliver despite the injury. She earned her spot. She made the team fair and square. She was confident she could perform even with the injury. What else could we blame her for?

Mathman · May 2, 2011

Actually, I'm laughing at this whole non-issue. Frank Carroll says, hey, Rachael Flatt should have told me something!

Well, guess what, Frank. She didn't.

R.D. · May 2, 2011

Mathman said:
Actually, I'm laughing at this whole non-issue. Frank Carroll says, hey, Rachael Flatt should have told me something!

Well, guess what, Frank. She didn't.

Still, if this doesn't blow away quickly it could pressure USFS to at least comment on the matter.

janetfan · May 2, 2011

Mathman said:
Actually, I'm laughing at this whole non-issue. Frank Carroll says, hey, Rachael Flatt should have told me something!

Well, guess what, Frank. She didn't.

I already said twice I don't see this as Rachael's fault. I would probably do the samething GIVEN THE CHOICE (if I was able to take the pain).

But this never should have only been Rachael and her parent's decision along with her coach.

Unfortunarley it feels pretty clear that TomZ knew a call to US Skating would go something like this:

"hello, this is tom and Rachael has a broken leg. But I think she can handle the pain and skate two good programs" <<<<<<<silence followed by a dial tone>>>>> as US Skating official remembering the GPF hangs up and places an emergency call to Frank Carroll.

Sort of kidding but of course the Flatts and Tom Z knew the truth most likely would have gotten their skater out and Mirai in.

And rightfully so. That is why we have alternates to protect the team's chances for next season.

Mathman · May 2, 2011

R.D. said:
Still, if this doesn't blow away quickly it could pressure USFS to at least comment on the matter.

Exactly. They might comment.

Is it 2012 yet?

Violet Bliss · May 2, 2011

No athlete likes to broadcast their injury. In Hockey, the team will only "specify" if a player has a upper body or a lower body injury. I often wonder what a hand injury will be considered.

I even heard about an inner body injury recently!

(Not comparing the situations.)

janetfan · May 2, 2011

Mathman said:
Exactly. They might comment.

Is it 2012 yet?

If skating had any popularity at all in the US this would be a bigger deal. As it is, Hersh will probably be the only journalist in the USA to try and get any mileage out of this.

Sometimes it is better to be lucky than good

bekalc · May 2, 2011

Mathman said:
Actually, I'm laughing at this whole non-issue. Frank Carroll says, hey, Rachael Flatt should have told me something!

Well, guess what, Frank. She didn't.

But there's the thing remember when Evan withdrew from Worlds? Evan and Frank were at the time notifying Jeremy and also Tom Z that Evan had a potential injury that might keep him out, so Jeremy should be prepared just in case. Why is it ridiculous or wrong for Frank to expect the same kind of sportsmanship.

I believe in the bylaws your suppose to notify the USFSA about an injury. And the USFSA then does get the option to replace you.

And as for Michelle medaled with an injury. Yu-na medaled with injuries. Rachael is not Yu-na/Michelle and not all injuries are the same. Rachael's long was a disaster, its hard to think that her practices were somehow going magically. Yu-na in contrast even badly injured is the best skater by far her country has. And besides clearly Yu-na was skating good enough to medal.

CassAgain · May 2, 2011

But there's the thing remember when Evan withdrew from Worlds? Evan and Frank were at the time notifying Jeremy and also Tom Z that Evan had a potential injury that might keep him out, so Jeremy should be prepared just in case.

That really puts the issue into perspective. Great post, bekalc.

Layfan · May 2, 2011

Mathman said:
Exactly. They might comment.

Is it 2012 yet?

Not that he doesn't have the right but ... is anyone trying making an issue of this aside from Phil Hersh? (GS posters don't count.)

demarinis5 · May 2, 2011

In the interview after the LP Rachael herself said that she was going on vacation after Worlds and getting ready for school she also said it would take about a month for her injury to heal.
I assume she knew this before going to Worlds. For whatever reason she decided to skate I feel bad for Rachael skating in that kind of pain. It was not like she was a favorite to medal.
Was it for the 3 spots? Unless Rachael or her coach shares with us the reason behind her decision to compete we can only speculate on their reasoning. For now I will just accept that
she was not in good shape, skated injured and bombed, that is fact.

Symmetry · May 2, 2011

bekalc said:
But there's the thing remember when Evan withdrew from Worlds? Evan and Frank were at the time notifying Jeremy and also Tom Z that Evan had a potential injury that might keep him out, so Jeremy should be prepared just in case. Why is it ridiculous or wrong for Frank to expect the same kind of sportsmanship.

Maybe because Evan and Frank had agreed to withdraw. Do you think Frank would have made a phone call to the USFSA if Evan had wanted to compete? If Rachael wanted to skate, there was no way for Tom Z to advertise her injury to anyone. It is a matter of royalty.

bekalc said:
And as for Michelle medaled with an injury. Yu-na medaled with injuries. Rachael is not Yu-na/Michelle and not all injuries are the same. Rachael's long was a disaster, its hard to think that her practices were somehow going magically. Yu-na in contrast even badly injured is the best skater by far her country has. And besides clearly Yu-na was skating good enough to medal.

This is a clear example of double-standard. Sure, Rachael is no Michelle, but this girl also deserves to have a fair opportunity that she earned from the National. There is nothing wrong with Rachael aiming to have a mini Yu-Na moment at Worlds. Too bad it didn't work out as she hoped for. But she tried, so there won't be any regrets and she will move on. Knowing this could be her last chance of competing at Worlds, deferring the college for a year to prepare for this event, how could she give up so easily? National pride is a good thing, but it shouldn't cost individual's dream.

Violet Bliss · May 2, 2011

The most memorable and admired skate with injury, from Wikipedia:

Elvis entered the 1998 Winter Olympic games in Nagano, Japan as the heavy favourite, and was expected to become the first Canadian man to win an Olympic gold medal. Unknown to most of the world, Elvis had suffered a groin injury, and was also recovering from the flu which struck many other athletes during the Games. This left Elvis unable to take painkillers due to the possibility of failing his drug test. The first sign that something wasn't right was the downgrade of his quad-triple combination in the free skate. (It was scored as a triple-triple due to a minor glitch). The media, and most of the world, became aware of his injury only when Elvis doubled over in pain after his long program. His courageous and difficult performance did, however, earn him the silver medal, although he found it too painful to skate during the medal presentation ceremony, and limped onto the podium wearing sneakers. He chose not to attend the World Championships that year because he did not want to make his groin injury worse. After the Olympics, though, he gave an interview about the performance and wept when people referred to him as "gutsy" and "full of courage".

demarinis5 · May 2, 2011

^^ ...and what a performance he gave, it was amazing.

Mathman · May 2, 2011

Hernando said:
If skating had any popularity at all in the US this would be a bigger deal. As it is, Hersh will probably be the only journalist in the USA to try and get any mileage out of this.

People play hurt all the time, in all sports, both popular and unpopular. No one ever makes a big deal of it.

becalc said:
I believe in the bylaws your suppose to notify the USFSA about an injury. And the USFSA then does get the option to replace you

I don't think so. At least, I have not been able to find any such rule.

Of course there are procedures in the bylaws for what happens if a skater withdraws due to injury.

symmetry said:
Maybe because Evan and Frank had agreed to withdraw...

This.

SkateFiguring said:
The most memorable and admired skate with injury, from Wikipedia:...

And this.

Should Flatt have skated at the World Championships on an injury?

Layfan

Mathman

FlattFan

Match Penalty

janetfan

Match Penalty

R.D.

Krislite

Mathman

R.D.

janetfan

Match Penalty

Mathman

Violet Bliss

janetfan

Match Penalty

bekalc

CassAgain

Layfan

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Symmetry

Violet Bliss

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

Mathman

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