Daisuke Takahashi Talks About The Worlds And The Future | Page 2 | Golden Skate

Daisuke Takahashi Talks About The Worlds And The Future

Krislite

Medalist
Joined
Sep 22, 2010
"Winning the practices" means this. The judges attend all the official practices and take notes. The skaters that do well in the official practices become entreched in the judges' minds before the actual competition begins. Sometimes the impression is so strong that the skater who has a good practice begins the competition with a few points in the bag already in the minds of the judges.

A good example was Shizuka Arakawa at the 2006 Olympics. Irina Slutskaya built up virtually unstoppable momentum leading up to the 2006 Olympics. But she started to falter at the end, perhaps due to exhaustion and chronic illness. She lost the Grand Prix Final to Mao Asada and was starting to slip out of the favorite's seat.

When the Olympic practices began, Arakawa was landing triple-triples right and left. Slutskaya and Cohen were struggling. Arakawa established her dominance in the judge's minds. When it came to the actual performace, in fact Arakawa omitted both of the planned triple-triples that she had practiced. But it didn't matter. She was the triple-triple queen and won the gold medal.

This is why skaters show up at official practices with all guns blazing. They know that the competition has already begun.

Do the judges always attend the official practices or just for certain competitions? Do they watch most/all of the skaters or just the medal contenders?

I don't understand why this practice is permitted, since it does leave an impression on the judges that can color their judgment during the actual competition.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
In fact the only time Arakawa did a triple triple the whole Olympic season was the Japanese Nationals free skate when she did a 3S/3T. Her reputation for triple triples that season was the past and practices!!!
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Mathman, can you explain what do you mean by "winning the practices" as I have no idea what it is?

My take on that is "reputation scoring."

Patrick admitted as much after Skate Canada when he said something like," the judges saw me in practice and know I can do those jumps."

The problem as I see it is that Patrick did not do those jumps very well in the actual competition.

He won SC on reputation. That is what Dai is talking about. Evan won the '09 WC so naturally the next season judges began boosting his PCS.
By the time Vancouver came around one would think Evan was one of the great artistic skaters based on his PCS.
 

fscric

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
I'm sorry I don't see how Skate Canada was relevant to Patrick's win at the World and I surely hope Daisuke didn't mean what you and Mathman inferred. I don't want to speculate on Daisuke's mindset but if, after seeing Patrick's National performances and his formal practices at The World, he felt he couldn't win because of Patrick's Skate Canada skates, I'd be very disappointed. I hope Mot can give more insight on this.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
^
You do realize that how folks infer or interpret an interview is only their opinion.
Lets not make this a Dai vs. Patrick thread.
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
^
I don't see comments here that make this a "Dai vs Patrick" thread.

Dai's comments can certainly be interpreted different ways. My comment is just my opinion and I believe Dai saw Patrick fall four times at SC and still win. He saw him fall at Rostelcup and saw him qualify for the GPF with two lacklustre GP performances.

Dai, like many of us saw Patrick winning the WC as inevitable. If the judges were not quite convinced then politicing lead by Lori helped assure a less than stellar Patrick would prevail at Worlds.

Fortunately Patrick skated well at Worlds and earned his victory by the way he skated saving skating from more controversy.

Skating has always been like this. It is only a real sport in the minds of those who don't follow many other sports.

In the SuperBowl if you drop a pass in the endzone you don't get credit for a touchdown even if you ran a perfect route, fooled the defense and were wide open.

Partial credit is big in CoP skating and reputation is exactly the same as it was in the 6.0 era.

If Yuna had not disappointed Speedy by sitting out the GP season she would have won Worlds. If it was close ISU was never going to give her the Gold because Miki, the good soldier earned it by skating the GP and 4CC.

I like Miki but felt her win at Worlds was very politically driven.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
^ That is your opinion and my comment was my opinion. Of course folks can interpret
Dai's interview anyway they wish, but it is still an opinion.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Thank you so much, mot! That was a candid, warm, and heart-felt article from Dai! He is so admirable!

Skating has always been like this. It is only a real sport in the minds of those who don't follow many other sports.

I fail to see why it's not a real sport? If we judge figure skating on cleanness, like some posters pushed and suggested, I could agree with you. But the actual judging is not. The fact that the most athletic skaters win, not the most artistic skaters win, or not the cleanest performances win, says all. It is a real sport. But it is an unique real sport with art involved.
 
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Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Do the judges always attend the official practices or just for certain competitions? Do they watch most/all of the skaters or just the medal contenders?

As I understand it the judges are expected to attend as many of the practice sessions as possible. I do not think that it is strictly required in the competition rules, but the judges like to do it to get a head's up on what to expect.

Similarly, the skaters must submit a jump card before the actual competition. This alerts the tech panel as to what jumps to expect the skater to attempt. If the skater changes his mind during the performance and does something different, this puts an extra burden on the tech panel to call what they see rather than what they expect.

I think the reason for this questionable practice is that figure skating judging is too hard. With so many things going on in rapid-fire sequence, if you come in cold you will not be able to process it all.

Another strange thing, especially at the lower levels, is that the judges are supposed to give advice to the skaters and their coaches as to how the skater might improve his/her scores. This seems like a blurring of the lines or responsibility, and could easily lead to the perception of favoritism.

The CoP actually helps out a little here. The skaters can see for themselves from the protocols where they can do better, so the judges don't have to take them aside and give them a head's up.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I'm sorry I don't see how Skate Canada was relevant to Patrick's win at the World and I surely hope Daisuke didn't mean what you and Mathman inferred. I don't want to speculate on Daisuke's mindset but if, after seeing Patrick's National performances and his formal practices at The World, he felt he couldn't win because of Patrick's Skate Canada skates, I'd be very disappointed. I hope Mot can give more insight on this.

I think Takahashi's own words are quite clear. It is not so much Skate Canada as Patrick's performance at Canadian Nationals, together with what he accomplished in Worlds practices, that made Daisuke feel that

I could not even make people believe that I was the one to challenge Patrick; I lost to him at that stage.

The context of the quote was Daisuke's boot problems. He was saying that as defending world champion and knowing he couldn't win, it didn't really matter much whether he was second or fifth.

This is not a Takahashi versus Chan thing. This is a compliment to Chan, that he was so dominant this year, getting stronger and stronger as the season progressed, that there was no chance for anyone even to be considered a legitimate challener to him. IMHO Chan fans should be pleased with this assessment, even as, say, Dick Button fans should have been pleased that Button was way out in from of his competitors in the 1950s or Sonia henie fans should have been pleased in the 1930s. :yes:
 

janetfan

Match Penalty
Joined
May 15, 2009
Thank you so much, mot! That was a candid, warm, and heart-felt article from Dai! He is so admirable!



I fail to see why it's not a real sport? If we judge figure skating on cleanness, like some posters pushed and suggested, I could agree with you. But the actual judging is not. The fact that the most athletic skaters win, not the most artistic skaters win, or not the cleanest performances win, says all. It is a real sport. But it is an unique real sport with art involved.

Not a problem to agree with your post particularly the last sentence. It is the artisitc components that make figure skating so unique.

I will rephrase and say "figure skating is a highly political sport based at times as much on reputation as opposed to what actually happens on the ice."

I don't think that part has changed much in the CoP era. Afterall, the same gang who presided over the SLC scandal are still running the show.

And they have publicly admitted cheating is prevalent in the "sport" and thus the need for anonymous judges. That along with the reputation scoring does seem to make figure skating a very "unique" sport.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
When the Olympic practices began, Arakawa was landing triple-triples right and left. Slutskaya and Cohen were struggling. Arakawa established her dominance in the judge's minds. When it came to the actual performace, in fact Arakawa omitted both of the planned triple-triples that she had practiced. But it didn't matter. She was the triple-triple queen and won the gold medal.

One could argue she won because the two programs she put out on ice eclipsed any other skater's two programs, not because she was the triple-triple queen.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
As I understand it the judges are expected to attend as many of the practice sessions as possible. I do not think that it is strictly required in the competition rules, but the judges like to do it to get a head's up on what to expect.

Similarly, the skaters must submit a jump card before the actual competition. This alerts the tech panel as to what jumps to expect the skater to attempt. If the skater changes his mind during the performance and does something different, this puts an extra burden on the tech panel to call what they see rather than what they expect.

I think the reason for this questionable practice is that figure skating judging is too hard. With so many things going on in rapid-fire sequence, if you come in cold you will not be able to process it all.

Another strange thing, especially at the lower levels, is that the judges are supposed to give advice to the skaters and their coaches as to how the skater might improve his/her scores. This seems like a blurring of the lines or responsibility, and could easily lead to the perception of favoritism.

The CoP actually helps out a little here. The skaters can see for themselves from the protocols where they can do better, so the judges don't have to take them aside and give them a head's up.

Yeah, I've always thought it did seem a bit sketchy and like blurring of the lines.

I agree CoP certainly gives skaters more detailed feedback but do judges actually take skaters aside less now? Didn't Rachael Flatt say she changed her short program because it kept getting bad reviews? I understood this to mean comments from the judges.
 

Layfan

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 5, 2009
One could argue she won because the two programs she put out on ice eclipsed any other skater's two programs, not because she was the triple-triple queen.

I was thinking the same thing :) ... It's pretty hard to make a case for Irina or Sasha winning over Shiz that day. (Although I don't think her SP really eclipsed anyone. Irina and Sasha skated pretty great SPs)

It is true that Shiz was looking the strongest in the practices. But it comes down to the same thing - she was skating better that week and the LP turned out to be no different. Still, considering what a mental game skating can be I'm sure Shiz's easy 3-3 during the practices couldn't have been missed by Sasha and Irina.
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Great, Dai! Very straight and manly!!!

I am sorry to hear that he felt that he had failed to build enough connection with the audience. In fact nobody got as much applauses as he did.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
One could argue she won because the two programs she put out on ice eclipsed any other skater's two programs, not because she was the triple-triple queen.

I think the judges were predisposed to like Arakawa's performance before it was skated. Even more so in the case of Plushenko.

Granted, in the best of all possible worlds "predispositions" shouldn't matter. In this case Shizuka skated sublimely, Sasha fell twice, and Irina was awful, so indeed it didn't matter.

Same with Chan. Everyone expected him to win big and he did. Takahashi agrees. What's the controversy?
 

mot

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
Thanks everyone for taking time to read. It was nothing but my pleasure.

But can I please remind you NOT to read too much into these sentences! It's only me who translated it; I'm not a professional translator, I don't know Daisuke personally, but I am self-proclaimed Daisuke uber and hence most likely biased, I was not there in Moscow to witness things first hand, English is my second language, and since it's been over a decade since I left Japan, perhaps my Japanese should not be fully trusted! Please try to get a gist of it - that's all!

Having said that, if I am allowed to express my own 'opinion' too... I think when he talked about Patrick being expected to win and that he could not change the momentum, he was referring to something more elusive. Something in the air. I think most of figure skating fans across the globe thought the world title was Patrick's to loose. That kind of shared belief / sentiment can create that. I don't think he was referring to anyone in particular, whether judges or not.

He seems to be terribly / wonderfully emotional. He is sensitive to and thrives on applause from those around him, including the audience. He gets extra power and energy from them. He once wrote that if he did not receive the biggest cheer when his name was called out during the warm-up, he got deflated. Yes, he is a difficult person indeed, isn't he? :p

"Winning the practises" may be a part of it, however, if we are referring to the minds of the skaters, not necessarily the judges. Here is an excerpt from Daisuke's autobiography, talking about what he calls 'time of horror', meaning the time after the 6-minute warm-up, waiting for his turn to perform;

I yearn to be the No1, but I cannot believe in myself without a doubt at the same time.

I observe other skaters during the official practice and 6-minute warm-up, and I determine my position amongst them, for example, 'OK, I am the 3rd best', and loose confidence. To those skaters I think are better than me, I even give way during the practice or on the corridor in the back stage.

It's a bad psychological habit that I have had for ages. Being able to remain calm enough to observe those around me gets in my way. I want to be able to ignore. I want to be able not to notice.
 
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FlattFan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
One could argue she won because the two programs she put out on ice eclipsed any other skater's two programs, not because she was the triple-triple queen.

I think her SP score was a bit inflated, due to winning practices. I thought it would be closer to Fumie.
Instead, her flawed SP (wobbly on the spiral, forward landing on the combo) got very close to Sasha's perfect SP.
She did a lot of triple-triples, including one in the few minutes warm up before the free skate. And that 3x3 looked effortless. Psyched poor Sasha. Sasha knew even a perfect program wasn't enough to beat a clean Shizuka. That kind of message the judges put out was enough of an advantage for Shizuka.
 

skfan

Final Flight
Joined
Jul 29, 2009
Thanks everyone for taking time to read. It was nothing but my pleasure.

But can I please remind you NOT to read too much into these sentences! It's only me who translated it; I'm not a professional translator, I don't know Daisuke personally, but I am self-proclaimed Daisuke uber and hence most likely biased, I was not there in Moscow to witness things first hand, English is my second language, and since it's been over a decade since I left Japan, perhaps my Japanese should not be fully trusted! Please try to get a gist of it - that's all!

Having said that, if I am allowed to express my own 'opinion' too... I think when he talked about Patrick being expected to win and that he could not change the momentum, he was referring to something more elusive. Something in the air. I think most of figure skating fans across the globe thought the world title was Patrick's to loose. That kind of shared belief / sentiment can create that. I don't think he was referring to anyone in particular, whether judges or not.

He seems to be terribly / wonderfully emotional. He is sensitive to and thrives on applause from those around him, including the audience. He gets extra power and energy from them. He once wrote that if he did not receive the biggest cheer when his name was called out during the warm-up, he got deflated. Yes, he is a difficult person indeed, isn't he? :p

"Winning the practises" may be a part of it, however, if we are referring to the minds of the skaters, not necessarily the judges. Here is an excerpt from Daisuke's autobiography, talking about what he calls 'time of horror', meaning the time after the 6-minute warm-up, waiting for his turn to perform;

I yearn to be the No1, but I cannot believe in myself without a doubt at the same time.

I observe other skaters during the official practice and 6-minute warm-up, and I determine my position amongst them, for example, 'OK, I am the 3rd best', and loose confidence. To those skaters I think are better than me, I even give way during the practice or on the corridor in the back stage.

It's a bad psychological habit that I have had for ages. Being able to remain calm enough to observe those around me gets in my way. I want to be able to ignore. I want to be able not to notice.


thank you again for your efforts, mot. it is a double edged sword when you translate something, even when you share your thoughts with somebody and then it gets transcribed, even into the same language. people might understand you better. or they may THINK they know you better than they actually do from reading a couple of sentences in print or on the net. i applaud daisuke for his candor, because i think it takes great courage to speak with such candor.

now, it also makes me worry for him, because i am a cynic who just doesn't see the road ahead being anything but rocky for anybody i root for (not unique to daisuke). however his comments about feeling deflated if he doesn't get the biggest cheer when introduced makes me want to hug him or (it would be more humane to) send my dog over to nuzzle him or something.

i think you might well cringe reading that-- yet another reader over-reacting to my translation LOL but IMO daisuke wanted to share, not hide, or he wouldn't have taken the risk to say what he did in the first place, in whatever language. it is easy to side-step questions if you have the desire and savvy to. and since he did want to share, you are carrying out his wishes by letting as many people know his revelations as possible :)

i do not interpret what dai said as any sort of slight against patrick chan, the ISU, the trend du jour, the judges, the justice of the universe... anything... it certainly doesn't make him appear any less likable to me. i think most sensible people wouldn't. i think i'm trying to say... please don't feel reluctant to share because far more good than harm comes of your translations. :)
 

Jammers

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 4, 2010
Country
United-States
Why did Shizuka not do her 3-3 combo's in her LP in Torino? If she had her performance that night might have been one of the epic skates to win an OGM. Instead it just felt like she did just enough to win but nothing to be remembered years later.
 
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