What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance? | Page 3 | Golden Skate

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
I don't know about B/S becoming European champions over P/B or F/S next season. I don't think it's going to happen. If excessive politicking was being done to move B/S up the ladder, they wouldn't have finished behind the then-Canadian-#3 W/P at Worlds. And I don't think B/S are better than P/B of their own accord. I/K could even pass B/S next season if they skate really well. The judges aren't afraid to place B/S lower if they deserve it - IIRC, they finished behind Hoffman/Zavozin in the SD at the GP Final, with just one or two bobbles.
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
In 2007 Delobel-Shonfelder won gold at ECh and Denkova-Staviisky were third. At WCh Den-St won, Del-Shon were out of the podium (without big mistakes). So - why P-B couldnt made this?

The dominant 2 teams in the World were not from North America at the time which is clearly the case now. Europeans is little more than one of the set ups for who wants to win the bronze at Worlds until one of V/M or D/W retire. And both DelSchoes and DenStav were veteran teams, not a much younger team like the Russians.
 

cornell08

Final Flight
Joined
May 10, 2009
I have high expectations for Bates & Samuelson, especially if they keep An American in Paris.
It would be a shame to never get to see that FD.

Good news is they will be performing soon!
http://www.skateforhope.org/site/PageServer?pagename=Headliners
Emily has confirmed they will be performing as scheduled. Hopefully this means Evan has had a successful recovery.

Interesting that Denney and Coughlin will also be performing...
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Really interesting thread! It's such a long time to the first competitions, so it is fun to speculate. My take?

Russians: Never count them out. I don't think they will challenge for a world medal next season, and I think the current #1 and #2 teams in the world are tops until they decide to retire. That being said, there are a whole bunch of young guns coming up from Junior that will make for interesting competitions over the next few years. I don't know how I/K will do over the long run. They are still very young, and need lots of refinement and improvement. It wasn't the season they hoped for this year. Maybe with a new coaching team they will have more success. We shall see. Sometimes these things just take time and work. There will be lots of teams pushing them. I've always liked B/S, and I think we have to not completely discount K/A. She is just lovely, and he is a quick study. In the old world of skating, such a partnership could never see big success. In the new world of CoP, over a few years, it is possible. He is not completely new to skating. He helped out with coaching dance with young teams at Canton. He also previously skated pairs and singles. On the world stage, I think Russia will absolutely secure 2 spots for 2013 Worlds, and very likely 3. I don't think we will see a Russian on the podium at world's next year. I do agree with others that Russia needs to re-think their strategies relative to CoP. This is a new world in ice dance. If they can master how to use the CoP effectively, while keeping the ability to create great program concepts and choreography, I think they could challenge for the podium quite easily, and maybe even top stop.

Americans: I don't think anyone will touch D/W at home. Yes, the Shibs had a fabulous season, but it will be difficult for them to repeat these acheivements. They have been a team for a very long time, and their basic skills are spectacular, but I think they will need to grow and mature in order to really find themselves in this position again. Had P/B not fallen, P/B would have been on the podium. Shibs winning 3rd is a fluke. And some felt that it should have been W/P of Canada instead, on the strength of their SD and then clean FD. I'm not really creep'd out by the brother/sister relationship. I think their coaches will do a great job making that work. But now we have Samuelson/Bates back this year, and there is Chock/Zuerlein. And more teams coming up the ranks. I think US ice dance is in great shape, and there is little danger of losing 3 spots to worlds for the foreseeable future. At world's, I think D/W will find themselves back in 2nd if V/M are healthy all season. As wonderful as D/W are, I think V/M have an extra edge in quality of crisp, clean edges, absolute unison when required, and very smooth skating.

Europeans: I'm glad to see F/S back in competition. I really hope they have a wonderful year, and their team-mates C/L as well. C/L have been around the senior circuit for a few years now, and have not shown a lot of improvement these last couple of years. I hope they find new coaches in North America - ones that will be able to help them address their specific weaknesses, and make the most out of CoP. I really like them. I have always just loved P/B and my heart is broken they did not achieve their world medal. I love their uniqueness. Their programs are always interesting and different from anyone else. I think they can win bronze at World's next year. As for the rest, Spain has a young, developing team, and perhaps there are more that will come up and surprise us. The beautiful thing about CoP, which was proven by the Shibs this year, is that results are not about waiting your turn and reputation. It plays some part, but not like it used to. Anyone who appears with excellent skating skills, great programs, wonderful presentation, and puts everything together when it counts, regardless of where they come from, can succeed in the sport.

APAC: I'm only adding this section because we haven't discussed Japan, China, Australia. Reeds seem to be consistently in more or less the same spot. Perhaps they will begin to make a move? Will Alison find a new partner? Will any of the other Pacific Rim teams find their way to training sites in North America or Russia or France, and make a real move in the standings? Anything is possible.


And the Canadians: Well, I obviously am a little biased about Canada. On the world stage, I think a healthy V/M will reign supreme until they retire. They are a once in a generation team, and I really am so excited to see them stick around for a few more years and continue to grow and develop and leave their legacy. It will be tough for W/P to challenge for top 5 at the worlds again, but if they have new-found confidence and energy, have not just a great SD but also a great FD next season, and continue to work really, really hard on their weaknesses and their strengths, I think they could even medal. I do think they are back on an upward trajectory, and I expect they will be solidly the #2 Canadian team. Between V/M and W/P, we will have 3 spots at worlds for the foreseeable future. I am less sure about C/P and P/I. As has been said above, IF they take a long hard look at their weaknesses and work on them, get expert help on packaging, and take lots of off-ice dance classes (especially modern dance), I think they have a shot at improving their position. I think they can be solidly #3 in Canada, and top 10 in the world. But they will need to really work at this. And they will maybe need to get some outside coaching help. I really like that C/P bring something different than the other 2 in Canada. I am really, really cheering for them to make the changes they need to make in order to see the success they desire. P/I are very new yet, and very young. They had injuries this year, and problems with consistency. They have the potential to be dynamite. But it is a little early to tell. They need a few years to develop, mature and find their own style. Being V/M lite will not help them. They need to be unique by themselves. I think it would be expected to make a lot of improvement when a team is new in the first few years. But will that growth continue now that they were Junior champions in Canada, 2nd in the world at Junior, and now the 4th team in Canada? I hope so. As for the 5th and 6th and 7th teams, I think these will continue to push each other. Maybe its just me, but I really don't think H/G are a good match physically. They make it work, and are charming, and have tons of personality, but I just wasn't that impressed with them. I felt they were a little over-marked, especially in the SD. R/H absolutely need new material and likely new coaches. They are the definition of stagnation, and need a complete overall - programs, presentation, the whole bit. And I believe A/T are still skating next season. They were only together 2 years, and made really great progress. Don't count them out either for top 5 in Canada. I think they suffer a little of the same mis-match situation as H/G, but it doesn't appear to be as bad a H/G. And then there are always teams that will appear at Senior, or that move up from Novice or Junior and surprise everyone. It should be a really interesting top 10 in Canada this year. My goodness! Such an embarrassment of riches!!!
 

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
I think ice dancing is still somewhat political and D/W now being the reigning World Champions will give them the slight edge in future competitions with V/M for now even if both teams are fully healthy and at their best, despite that I think V/M are the better team. Personally I consider them technically equal but V/M artistically much stronger, but I doubt that is how the scores will come out now. V/M's injury opened the door for D/W and they took it and ran with it, and with the nature of ice dance it is theirs to lose for the forseeable future IMO. Anyway I could be wrong but that is my current hunch. BTW I am in no way questoining D/W's World title. They were the better and more prepared team at Worlds, as they should have been with far more preparation and training time, and rightfully won. I am just saying how I think things will be even if V/M and D/W both stay completely healthy next season now that D/W have the momentum.

I also have a feeling V/M will retire before Sochi, especialy if they start losing regularly to D/W which I think might happen. D/W on the other hand I am pretty sure will be there in Sochi, regardless what happens results wise between now and then.
 
Last edited:

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
To judge by the audience response to V/M at world's, I don't think D/W can be seen to have taken a really definitive lead .OTOH, I wouldn't classify D/W's win as a default win. Tessa was barely back from injury , so we don't know how much better they could have been with more training time , but Charlie and Meryl 's material was not as perfectly suited to them as has been the case in the past. We've known these couples to be very close for years , so assuming both stay healthy (knock on wood ) we're right back to it being a brand new game every year.

Earlier , on another thread , doris made the excellent point that whether you think D/W nailed the Tango or not , the work they put in to perfect the dance will keep paying off for them in the future. I'm quite sure this is true. And if Tessa's medical problem is truly behind her, V/M also have the possibility of progressing .Goodness knows what perfection we've yet to see. These two couples are so good , so young and they're bound to be forever linked in the history of the sport.
 
Last edited:

cornell08

Final Flight
Joined
May 10, 2009
People seem to be assuming that Chock & Zuerlein are going to stay together next year. I'm not so sure......
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Why? Have you heard that either Madison or Greg or both are on ice partner search? Truly, I can't see how splitting up would benefit them, unless one or the other is just ready to retire. They were top ten at Worlds and 3rd at US Nationals and as such get 2 GPs and a trip to Nationals without having to do regionals or sectionals. Madison, particularly, is very young. The only reason I can think of for them to split is because one or the other wants to pursue something other than skating.

And colleen, I am definitely excited to see what both V&M and D&W decide to do this season. One thing I like about both couples is that they start ODs/SDs by taking ballroom lessons in the dance they are working on. D&W have already started working on their SD, according to an article in Detroit Free Press, again by taking lessons in Latin ballroom. V&M have always been a bit less public than D&W about their training, so the fact that I haven't heard doesn't mean a single thing about whether they have started training for next season or not.

However, a look at their schedule makes me wonder whether they have really left enough time to prepare for next season. I wonder whether they might opt to skate the last 2 GPs?

They are doing Korean SOI and a tour in China, and The Ice in Japan, as well as the Detroit benefit for Japan.
 
Last edited:

pangtongfan

Match Penalty
Joined
Jun 16, 2010
People seem to be assuming that Chock & Zuerlein are going to stay together next year. I'm not so sure......

Who knows how they feel now. They must have mixed emotions. It was a very successful season for them in one sense, yet in another it must be hard to see the Shibutanis fly so far away from them. With Samuelson & Bates returning and some other up and comers it seems inevitable they will be relegated to a fierce fight for even the #3 spot in the U.S in coming seasons, with little chance to move up barring major improvements. I hope they stay together and make making it to Sochi and climbing the World rankings as a goal. They are still young and have possabilities.

And frankly I cant imagine the idea either one would do any better with another partner.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I think ice dancing is still somewhat political and D/W now being the reigning World Champions will give them the slight edge in future competitions with V/M for now even if both teams are fully healthy and at their best, despite that I think V/M are the better team. Personally I consider them technically equal but V/M artistically much stronger, but I doubt that is how the scores will come out now. V/M's injury opened the door for D/W and they took it and ran with it, and with the nature of ice dance it is theirs to lose for the forseeable future IMO. Anyway I could be wrong but that is my current hunch. BTW I am in no way questoining D/W's World title. They were the better and more prepared team at Worlds, as they should have been with far more preparation and training time, and rightfully won. I am just saying how I think things will be even if V/M and D/W both stay completely healthy next season now that D/W have the momentum.

I also have a feeling V/M will retire before Sochi, especialy if they start losing regularly to D/W which I think might happen. D/W on the other hand I am pretty sure will be there in Sochi, regardless what happens results wise between now and then.



While I think there is some marking based on reputation (just ask W/P about that) CoP is a huge improvement over the old system in this regard. Even if we do factor in reputation, I do not think V/M were hurt long term at all by D/W winning. D/W absolutely deserved to win. However, V/M surgery would have sidelined other lesser teams for at least the season and maybe permanently. They took risks with a very difficult program far outside their comfort zone, which they only competed once. They beat D/W on the SD. And they still took home #2 in the world. And they are still the reigning Olympic champions. The reality is that healthy D/W and healthy V/M are going to push each other hopefully for years to come. I think the slight edge goes to V/M, but it will depend on how each skates on the given day. And we fans get to watch a great show. I hope that both teams stay to Sochi. I think V/M will at least stay until worlds 2013 to lock in 3 spots for Canada at the Olympics, and try to win a world title in their home town of London, Ontario.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
People seem to be assuming that Chock & Zuerlein are going to stay together next year. I'm not so sure......

I don't get this. Why wouldn't they stay together? Yes, they will likely be stuck in a battle for 3rd for a number of years yet. But that gives them time to grow and develop and mature. They are still very young. It used to be that teams didn't find real success until their 30's. What's the rush? I don't think it would be difficult for them to figure out their place in the US system. Except for the year they had growth issues, the Shibs have always been a very special, amazing team. They wouldn't have expected to go to worlds this year, except for Bate's injury. It was a cinderella year for them, and hopefully gives them courage and confidence for the future. If they work hard, and continue to grow and develop, when they get to worlds again, they will be stellar. And thanks to their placement at worlds this year, they will continue to have international exposure.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
Had P/B not fallen, P/B would have been on the podium. Shibs winning 3rd is a fluke. And some felt that it should have been W/P of Canada instead, on the strength of their SD and then clean FD.

Yes, the Shibutanis won bronze because P/B fell. But had P/B not fallen, the Shibs would still have been 4th and W/P 5th, since the Shibs beat W/P in both SD and FD, by 3.47 points overall---not a tiny margin in ice dance. Why "some" would have W/P 3rd is a puzzlement.
 

npa

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
To judge by the audience response to V/M at world's, I don't think D/W can be seen to have taken a really definitive lead ..

O yes - for "Megasport" like one time said Belbin: "secod were better then the first" :biggrin: This all about intertaining.
V-M cloul be behind D-W in next season, but not because D-W improved or they are so good. USA didnt have any chance to win even bronz medal at other competition - only pairs. Canada have Chan :biggrin:
 

KKonas

Medalist
Joined
Oct 31, 2009
O yes - for "Megasport" like one time said Belbin: "secod were better then the first" :biggrin: This all about intertaining.
V-M cloul be behind D-W in next season, but not because D-W improved or they are so good. USA didnt have any chance to win even bronz medal at other competition - only pairs. Canada have Chan :biggrin:

We all know you are a V&M uber, but saying that D&W aren't good enough to win Worlds and did so only because the US didn't have other medalists in the other disciplines, just makes you look ridiculous.
 

npa

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
We all know you are a V&M uber, but saying that D&W aren't good enough to win Worlds and did so only because the US didn't have other medalists in the other disciplines, just makes you look ridiculous.

No, this is V-M arent good enough to win WCh on more time :)
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
Yes, the Shibutanis won bronze because P/B fell. But had P/B not fallen, the Shibs would still have been 4th and W/P 5th, since the Shibs beat W/P in both SD and FD, by 3.47 points overall---not a tiny margin in ice dance. Why "some" would have W/P 3rd is a puzzlement.

As amazing as the Shibs are, W/P had a simply stellar SD. There were many on the discussion boards at the time that commented that W/P had a lovely skate, and were under-scored. I'm not sure about scores, but I also think the W/P SD was elegent, mature, gorgeous.... Shibs are a really great team, but they do not yet have the elegance and maturity of W/P. Maybe Shibs compensate with cleaner feet, pointed toes, etc. I happen to like both teams. I probably would have scored W/P higher than Shibs in the SD. I'm not sure about the FD. Was never a fan of their FD all season.
 

npa

Match Penalty
Joined
Nov 17, 2006
W-P were really greate at this WCh. They show greate speed, power and elegance. I dont like there FD, but IMHO- they could be third.
I love Shibs FD, but not so much there SD. They was cute in FD, but maybe didnt lookm like senior skaters yeat in there style. But this is really team for gold in Sochi (they will foght with I-K IMHO)
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Weaver and Poje could keep both Shibs and Euros off the podium in 2012 and then if Shibs are fourth and Europes highest palcement is fifth that would truly be the ghettoization of Europe in Ice Dance and they would be totally irrelevent and a huge joke for years to come.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
W/P had a simply stellar SD.....I probably would have scored W/P higher than Shibs in the SD. I'm not sure about the FD. Was never a fan of their FD all season.

In the SD, Shibutanis outscored W/P in both TES and PCS. Interestingly, W/P did better in the FD than they did in the SD. W/P were fourth in the FD, but seventh in the SD, behind V/M, D/W, P/B, Shibs, B/S and I/K. Apparently, the judges didn't think as highly of their SD as you do.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
I understood that a number of commentators in Europe thought W/P were undermarked in the SD. The Shibs had a fabulous competition , but I wasn't sure they should have been ahead of W/P in the SD. I can't really be completely objective about the FD ,because I've adored the Shibs' FD all season, but haven't been keen on W/P's. (That said, W/P did skate it really well)...I certainly didn't agree with the judges about I/K's placement in the SD, I thought they were gifted..and maybe B/S were a bit, too..I really like B/S a lot, but I didn't think their 2nd SD was as good as their first..
 
Top