What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance? | Page 14 | Golden Skate

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 27, 2009
VIII. Mrs. P, I take your point about people not looking inside, but I don’t like Apple either. This is a very specific case where (a) what these talented skaters are doing isn’t in my wheelhouse and (b) ergo, their technical improvements don’t mean a whole lot to me because the whole isn’t more than the sum of its parts.

Well, dang. Didn't think I had to deal with Apple haters on this board, but you know. ;) J/K.

Seriously, I definitely — obviously – see it differently. I believe these technical elements will be key to making it a great program by the end of the season. Going back to the iPhone 4S again. People at first glance were like "No, there's nothing new. Blah blah blah!" But now that people are playing with it (the phone was released it) it's more like "OH my gosh I love this phone." Again, functionality ultimately wins people over. Likewise with the Shibs, I can see why people don't think highly of this program when it's new and fully polished, but somehow, I think they're going to refine it over the course of the year, mastering those elements will allow them to be more free to express their FD later.

And let's mention one more point — 40's Big Band is a good way to bring casual fans in. My husband, who is not a skating fan at all (in fact jokes that he loses his wife for several months during the season) LOVES the Shibutanis. He loves their polish. He loves their personality. When he looked at this FD from Finlandia after I told him about all the criticism they've been getting he said: "I don't get it. Why do people dislike this again?"
 

Kitt

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
Wow, Meryl and Charlie in '03 - incredible edges and unison, even then as juniors!
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States

P&I's biggest hit was for the Rhumba, which with work, I'm sure they can fix.

And IP, I can't believe that you didn't think of abduction with Phantom. Of course, you completely hate the book & the music, so it's hard to be quite objective then.

It's equally hard for me to be objective about Funny Face, particularly the S'Wonderful part of it. I detest that music so much that it's hard to see the skating is excellent.

But about the Immigrants, we will have to agree to differ--however, you apparently watch mostly Massimo, and I watch mostly Faiella. It does make a difference, as you pointed out. When someone over emotes that much, it's hard for me to shift my attention away. Mostly what I see when I watch them is botched elements and excellent staging, and the one time I notice Massimo, he's making what I see as a rather corny praying hands gesture while in a totally inappropriate posture for praying (with a girl on his lap).
 

Apple Pi

Rinkside
Joined
Sep 12, 2010
Davis/White's Phantom of the Opera was all about power and speed. It was not about being "pretty" or aesthetically pleasing. Once you realize that, all their lifts (and the choreography, for that matter) make sense. The lifts fulfilled the choreographic intention of that program. I disliked POTO as a piece of choreography for a long time until I saw this.

Also, jcoates, your commentary is brilliant.
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Pogue,

I did not mean for any of my comments about C/P's last FD to imply that I thought the choreography had a dated feel. It was all classic Chris Dean and had a very modern staging. I simply wanted to point out back in the spring that all the cries of brilliant originality regarding it were somewhat misplaced. I referred to it in this thread only for purposes of comparison with how Dean and Zoueva approach choreography. I actually love Dean's artistic sensibility, but some of his methods of execution bug me sometimes.

I agree with you that the cultural and stylistic preferences of judges and fans can play a very influential role on how a skater or team is perceived and that that reason alone merits allotting a reduced level of weight presentation scores. I also think that given how different D/W and V/M are, it's pretty remarkable that the same choreographer has succeeded in packaging them to equal levels of acceptance by judges and fans alike.

Doris makes a good point about F/S. I too tend to focus most of my view on her and less on Massimo. I will re-watch their Olympic programs for your points Pogue. But like Doris, I tended to see them as beautifully costumed and very good storytellers, but less able to keep up with the rapidly increasing technical standard of not only lifts but also greater speed.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Roman numerals! Wow. :biggrin:

IV. Buttercup, if you’re telling me that I convinced you to like F/S without having convinced you about V/M, I might have to turn in my uber card :)D).
Technically I convinced myself in both cases: With V/M, after rewatching their 2008 Worlds FD shortly after the events - I could see how good they were, and I was really impressed when I saw them live. But I would equate it to how I feel about Lambiel: he's great and I admire him, but for whatever reason it's never gone beyond admiration.

F/S, it was the 2009 Oberstdorf winter gala that got me interested. They did their OD and it was fantastic, and it was then that I realized that watching Massimo makes them so much more enjoyable, which kind of echoes what you wrote in the next point. I would urge anyone who's gone the traditional route in the past and focused on the girl to take a look at the Euros version of The Immigrants and focus primarily on Scali. He's wonderful and it's his expression that really makes the program.

V. Phantom vs The Immigrants: Here’s where creativity is diminished by a lack of expression. It never really occurred to me that D/W’s “Phantom” program was trying to tell the story of the music. Ignoring the fact that POTO is a blight on musical theatre (whereas The Godfather and its sequel are among the greatest American films ever), I never once bought Charlie as the Phantom. He can’t (at the moment) convey love, passion or obsession, imo, so that the lifts, despite doris’ assertion, don’t come off as metaphors for abduction so much as ungainly and unpleasing to the eye. Conversely, “The Immigrants” works because Massimo is so emotionally fluid on the ice (indeed, he blows Frederica out of the water there – she’s way too one note), so that his expression in the first lift really sets the stage for what we’re about to see (his arms outstretched, the look on his face, Frederica clutching onto him with all her power). I see that reading in the construction of the program because I see it in his face too.
Yes to all of it. And the reason I keep writing that D/W aren't good at relating to one another in a romantic/passionate way is that they try, but it's not believable. They skate very fast and do difficult things, but it leaves me cold.

Buttercup, you mentioned that Bin Yao deliberately westernized Shen/Zhao in order to make them more palatable to the judges. There’s no denying that the culture of the judges would influence their perception of what is artistic, as an example.
So says The Second Mark, at least, though there are some timeline issues with the claim as presented in the book. But I agree with what you wrote about the judges cultural background, and that's one reason why I am skeptical when conspiracies are mentioned - not because I believe the judging is always pristine clean, but because I do feel cultural preferences can come into play, and the judges may not even be aware of how this affects them (note: as a social psychologist, I find the process quite interesting for several reasons).

But I still want to see more emphasis on artistry than there is now. I don't know how to best do that while protecting the integrity of the results, but skating is getting too techy for my liking.
 

jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Thanks Doris. It's becoming clear that most of the Canton teams have been given FDs this season that are different takes on fun and whimsy. Some character driven, some straightforward.

On another note, given all the recent discussion about lifts and differences in height between partners, it's interesting to note that this team is quite similar in height. It will be interesting to see how or if that fact affects their success over time as a team.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:biggrin: I almost didn't look at that , thinking I've seen enough Austin Powers to last me a very long time.. but I'm so glad I did ! That's the most engaging AP program I've ever seen..( She's just so..GoGo )

I'm putting in a word for the costumes , here..I think they're just spot on..perfect for the era , and they don't make the mistake of being a parody on what was already a parody to begin with.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, I noticed the costumes, too. It's nice to see some dancers these days taking a chance and going for light humor and quirkiness rather than angsty drama, or young love & romance or (this year) old standards. It's a nice change.
 

NorthernDancers

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 15, 2010
I. VII. NorthernDancers, what about the current standard of GOE application and PCS do you feels is poorly structured? Using S/Z as the example (heh), they were considered to have “good” PCS. Not Very Good/Superior/Outstanding. Good. Were they “on” more? How would you compare the elements? Do you think the program (SD) was as well choreographed? Did they make any errors? More two-foot skating? Well, someone correct me, but isn’t the cha-cha more on two feet than the rhumba, and doesn’t it take up more of a program? If both teams were perfect, what would the ideal score separation be? They received no +3s nor anything in the 9’s for PCS (they got five scores 8.00 or higher, but four were from one judge ). You really do seem to implicitly be returning to the days of 6.0 (the top scores should be for the top skaters), an idea I find troubling, especially considering how you’re expressing it.

IX. NorthernDancers, one thing you’re neglecting to mention is that those skaters who stuck it out and developed as seniors simply didn’t have the junior grand prix circuit to develop on in the first place. Victor Kraatz was twenty when he paired with Shae-Lynn Bourne. At that point, V/M and D/W had already been together 11+ years. How many people in the top ranks of ice dance are in their thirties? Not many. No, of course not many.

My concern is when I see the judges score sheet for S/B from Italy with 8's an 7's in the PCS, and those are more or less the same marks the Shibs got on their PCS in Finlandia. To me, those teams are not the same quality of skating. On paper it actually looks like S/B beat the Shibs. I don't think that is right at all. When S/B step up to Senior, will they continue to get those marks and find themselves on the podium or top 5 at Worlds? Or do they take a bit of a hit on their PCS once they step up to Senior, now they are compared with other Seniors? Again, I don't consider any of the current Juniors in the same league as V/M, Shibs, D/W, W/P, P/B, etc.

Very good point on some of those teams not having the opportunity to develop as Juniors first. That being said, we have a very young field, and in the past we saw teams skate into their 30's on a more regular basis. And they did their best work then.
 

chuckm

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 31, 2003
Country
United-States
STEPANOVA / BUKIN are only 15 and 17, and there are lots of Russian Senior teams vying for a berth at Worlds. I suspect S/B will stay Junior for another season or two, just like Monko/Khaliavin did.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Quite often, junior dancers are over scored. A seamless transition to seniors is not assured, even for high scoring juniors.

I&K have not made the huge splash in seniors that they were expected to, for example, or that their PCS as juniors might have predicted.. C&P and Samuelson & Bates came apart over the strain and difficulty of moving to seniors. That can still happen even in these days of COP.

It is hard to know how Stepanova & Bukin or Zhiganshina & Sinitsin will place. For one thing, the pattern dances are harder at seniors, so the kids are apt to take a hit at first, particularly on Finnstep, Golden Waltz, or Tango Romantica. Even the rhumba is not a gimme. I'll be interested to see how Monko & Khaliavin make the transition this year.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
I'll be interested to see how Monko & Khaliavin make the transition this year.

Me too. Let's not forget, they stayed one more year in juniors and they could get into the mix and dispatch one of the top 3 teams.
The wait your turn theory is pretty much obsolete these days
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Yes, it's true that no one waits their turn-however some teams still have a problem with the transition.
 

cotillion

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 17, 2007
Monko & Khaliavin have w/d from both their gp events , thought he was sick, maybe its more than that! Not a good start of the season for them.
 
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