What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance? | Page 10 | Golden Skate

What will the 2011/2012 season bring us in ice dance?

nemequittepas

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
I don't understand. Why would they copy Scott and Tessa's music so blatantly? I mean, just one of them could have easily been a fluke, but the opening song and ending song are the same... Seems strange to me.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
:disapp: Morozov. The sound wasn't great, so I couldn't tell exactly how much was the same , but I hate the stupid tactic. I hated it last year when he gave Fernandez the same opening piece as Dai.

I don't think there's a chance it was a fluke in either case.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Yeah, it's not a fluke. Leonova's program is to Pirates of the Carribean. Just like Fernandez. Morosov has admitted to basically slapping together Ando's competitive programs. Truthfully, I sorta loathe that I/K SD and won't bother with the FD until the GPs. I hope they gain power and confidence from Morosov and then dump him.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Here's what may or may not be the final form of I&K's FD. I've heard several people say that their real music is Ave Maria and they skated to something from a Russian pop star of the 80's at the Russian test skate.

http://www.youtube.com/user/mihsersh#p/u/4/apr7p4qVcEg

They do some kind of twizzles in a circle like V&M did, but Ilia has trouble with them, and they don't maintain unison, which has to be really difficult in a circle.
 

nemequittepas

Rinkside
Joined
Aug 24, 2011
But don't the skaters realize what is going on? Wouldn't they not want anything to do with that sort of strategy?
They seem to copy in that FD as well... from their own SD! Hehe. They repeat at least one element there, the first lift was in the SD as well.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
:confused:
I'm.. so far.. underwhelmed.

I decided to pull this thread up, as the discussion about the Canton teams dances are continuing, and I would like to see some debate in the context of comparioson with the top russian teams, we have seen a while ago. Plus we just got today P/B Fd as well, so this would be the right moment to reignate the chat of all we have seen so far this season.

The first striking comparison is between V/M and I/K SD. The only difference in the music is the second section, V/M using "Temptation" for the rhumba steps and I/K a samba "Mas Que Nada".

I just watched the 2 dances back to back. The russians will suffer big time, if they will be compared with V/M, because they seem to lack the swagger, speed, and their technique is poorer too. It strikes me how far apart I/K dance, very uncomfortable with each other many times. Even if the execution will get more polished, still will be falling way short. Of course, nobody should expect I/K in their second year in seniors to challenge the Olympic champions, but a smarter choice of music at least should have been beneficial, not to trigger immediate comparisons.
 
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blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
I decided to pull this thread up, as the discussion about the Canton teams dances are continuing, and I would like to see some debate in the context of comparioson with the top russian teams, we have seen a while ago. Plus we just got today P/B Fd as well, so this would be the right moment to reignate the chat of all we have seen so far this season.

The first striking comparison is between V/M and I/K SD. The only difference in the music is the second section, V/M using "Tempation" for the rhumba steps and I/K a samba "Mas Que Nada".

I just watched the 2 dances back to back. The russians will suffer big time, if they will be compared with V/M, because they seem to lack the swagger, speed, and their technique is poorer too. It strikes me how far apart I/K dance, very uncomfortable with each other many times. Even if the execution will get more polished, still will be falling way short. Of course, nobody should expect I/K in their second year in seniors to challenge the Olympic champions, but a smarter choice of music at least should have been beneficial, not to trigger immediate comparisons.

They're not the only ones to use V/M's music, or a portion of it. Hubbell/Donohue use La Mujer Latina as the beginning of their SD. Although they are brand-new and aren't considered one of the top three teams in the US at the moment, I prefer their skating to I/K.

http://youtu.be/_tr-83ZjuzA
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
A lot of the hype over I/K is kind of misplaced now. Flashes of talent and potential but nothing that could get them over 10th place in the Free dance at worlds.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
They're not the only ones to use V/M's music, or a portion of it. Hubbell/Donohue use La Mujer Latina as the beginning of their SD. Although they are brand-new and aren't considered one of the top three teams in the US at the moment, I prefer their skating to I/K.

http://youtu.be/_tr-83ZjuzA

Thanks a lot for the Hubbell / Donohue SD, it wasn't posted before I think.
Now, this team has a few mistakes and unison problems, but as far as the "latin swagger" they project more than I/K, as well as the other US teams I have seen at Finlandia. And after scoring a victory over the 12th ranked team at Worlds (Z/S), they could be a very solid challenger for the US podium, comes Nationals.
 

CARA

Final Flight
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Oct 16, 2009
Country
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Among Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donohue, Samuelson/Gilles, ANNUSCIO/LORELLO, and KRIENGKRAIRUT/GIULIETTI-SCHMITT, the 3rd place at US nationals will be a real dog fight. :eek:
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Among Chock/Bates, Hubbell/Donohue, Samuelson/Gilles, ANNUSCIO/LORELLO, and KRIENGKRAIRUT/GIULIETTI-SCHMITT, the 3rd place at US nationals will be a real dog fight. :eek:

Probably ice dance field in US never was this deep, and considering the top teams scored the country's best results ever in 2011, it is actually normal.
Same goes for Canada, since Vrtue ad Moir are on the top, they pulled every team below up a notch.
Canada never had two teams in the top 5 in the world before as far as I can recall.
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
Now about Nathalie and Fabian's FD posted on their facebook. Camerlengo never stops surprising me. He came up with an idea which I think has never done before. Correct me if I am wrong. An egyptian theme, which seems to be very authentic by the moves he used. I checked, i have to say a few egyptian dances on youtube, and EVERY pose and body shape, from the begining of the dance to the end is linear and anguiar. Their hands angular, their body, including in the lifts are all linear.

I like it and I think the judges will give them good reviews. The only thing which bothers me, i wish they have not used "The feeling begins" , because it was used by G/P to win a world title with it.
 
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jcoates

Medalist
Joined
Mar 3, 2006
Probably ice dance field in US never was this deep, and considering the top teams scored the country's best results ever in 2011, it is actually normal.
Same goes for Canada, since Vrtue ad Moir are on the top, they pulled every team below up a notch.
Canada never had two teams in the top 5 in the world before as far as I can recall.

They came close in 2007 when Dubreuil and Lauzon were 2nd and Virtue and Moir were 6th. Still the point is well made. The last time the US that kind of finish before 2009 was in the 80's was the 1984 Olympics when US teams went 4th and 5th. The fact that 2nd and 3rd place North American teams are nearly as competitive as their championship winning teams is a refreshing development I never thought I'd see. It's remarkable and quite pleasing.
 

dorispulaski

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On the subject of what will ice dance bring us this year, from looking at the protocols, I would say, we will be seeing a lot of deductions. In previous years, you would see deductions for falls and extended lifts, and maybe costume if a piece of it fell off.

Between the Senior B's and the JGP, here's what I've found so far, apart from the extended lifts:

Finlandia
Prop/Costume

Nebelhorn
2 costume/prop deductions

jgp latvia
costume/prop
illegal element
2 time violations

jgp brisbane
costume/prop

jgp poland
extra element by verif
costume/prop violation

jgp roumania
Music restriction violation: -2.00 (Simonova & Dragun) Hall of the Mountain King
Extra element by verif.: -1.00

JGP Austria
Interruption in excess: -1.00

JGP Lombardi
Zhang & WU (Nino Rota R&J)
Music restriction violation: -2.00

Nepala
Z&G music restriction violation -2
R&J, Nino Rota

Of course, they ignored a lot of stuff too-for example, Z&G got a deduction at Nepala, but not at Nebelhorn.

Still, it appears that it will be no wonder if we hear a lot of drum machine beats added to FD's, and if all the costumes look like 1960's gym suits, or something else equally modest.

It reminds me of when the judges first started to call lips-all we heard were flutzes, and then suddenly one year the judges discovered that some of the skaters lip. And the year when they discovered underrotation. At first was called occasionally. Then it was all over the protocols.

So...
 

herios

Medalist
Joined
Jan 25, 2004
On the subject of what will ice dance bring us this year, from looking at the protocols, I would say, we will be seeing a lot of deductions. In previous years, you would see deductions for falls and extended lifts, and maybe costume if a piece of it fell off.


So...
I am surprised Ralph / Hill got away with the music for their SD, without a penalty. Harlem Nocturne is not latin rythm.
 

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Country
United-States
Ralph/Hill skated at Nebelhorn, where Zhiganshina & Gaszi were not penalized for their music, although they were at their next competition. Presumably it was a more lenient panel.

And did they dub in a correct rhythm with a drum machine?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpZS7u92Y4A

It sounds like that might be true-my computer's sound quality is not of the most wonderful, but there is a clicking in the Harlem Nocturne clip, I think?.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Continuing the discussion from the Finlandia thread....

I understand that people are looking for greater choreographic range from the Shibs. I just don't see the rush for it to be so immediate. I see them as a much more long term team, a bit like Klimova Ponomarenko were. That team was at or near the top largely on the basis of their technique for most of their (very long) career. Their iconic image as a high drama team is mostly the result of their 1991 season, 3rd Olympic season and subsequent pro career. Before that, they had much more tame themes. In retrospect those programs have been much more appreciated by skating fans, but while they were competing, they received much of the same criticism the Shibs are getting now. "Too conventional" "Old fashioned" "Lacks passion and drama" Etc Etc. Yet they were no worse than second at Worlds for an astounding 8 consecutive years. Given that as well as the relative similarity in their ages to K/P's career arc and the pure technique, I'm not at all worried about them for the long term. They will develop a choreographic range of their own at their own pace, not ours.

1. I think part of the reason is that, well, their success was immediate. If we’re talking about them as potential for the future, then yes – people would say “I like them, look forward to more when they grow up.” But they’re also world bronze medalists. Virtue/Moir followed their first medal with a complete departure, program wise. So did Davis/White. So if their success is immediate, I see no reason to somehow exclude them from the expectations that occur when you have your medal-winning breakthrough

2. It’s interesting you mention Klimova/Ponamarenko, because like the Shibutanis, there was certainly some drama surrounding their first medal. A costly fall vs an oddly applied music deduction from/for those ahead of them.


I should refine my comment about trends to prefer heavy drama and romance, but I definitely think the trend to wish for heavier programs from longstanding teams is a real one. In fact, its been a trend since Bolero. (most of B/B's career, the Duchenays, late K/P, Usova and Zhulin even in 93 when more upbeat themes were being pushed, most of G/P even before 94, A/P, late B/K, D/V etc.)

3. As a rule, heavy programs seem to be preferred, regardless of discipline. I think last year we saw a notable example with the pairs – Savchenko/Szolkowy vs Volosozhar/Trankov. S/S were more artistic – the program was a better match to the music, it was more complex choreographically, and they performed it absolutely sensationally. But V/T were more traditionally moving, and a surprising number of people thought they should’ve won.

4. I’ll have to watch more thoroughly, but I’m gonna point out that B/K weren’t trending to a heavier program. They had one year where they completely Russified themselves and barely won gold (computer aided). Indeed, it’s the first sign we have that Morosov really has no ideas of his own and merely copies others (Here’s Bourne/Kraatz winning FD from 2003, and the FD Morosov copies from)

I detest the idea that the Shibs or any team would have to lose out on a deserved medal or placement in order to deflect or end some sort of backlash. That sort of treatment is more appropriate in a beauty pageant than a sporting event. If they outskate the teams around them, then they should beat them regardless of where they train, who their coaches are or any other extraneous reason.

5. I agree, but the one thing that does bother me is that I’m not convinced that one school of ice dancing dominating the way the Canton team does now is in fact a good thing for the sport. If I’m honest, I’m gonna say I only truly love one Canton team (V/M) and have a lot of respect/like/enthusiasm for the others. I’m not convinced I think an all Canton podium is where I want the sport to head, the same way an all Nichol-podium for mens/ladies skating would be underwhelming, regardless of actual merit

I understand your love of narrative. It's perfectly human to feel that inclination. But I would rather see the very best possible performances from all concerned and let the chips fall where they may, like 2010 Vancouver between D/W and V/M. I preferred Meryl and Charlie, but could not argue with the result. That to me is the best and longest lasting source of narrative and drama. The fairytale ending is nice but not necessary for me.

6. Oh, I hope that I didn’t imply that I wanted anything less than the best.

7. Juvenile vs light? I think it’s easy to mix the two up, but I do think that it has to do with the feelings evoked as much as the on ice content. Mrs. P, you mentioned Kanako Murakami’s program, and that’s a perfect example of a juvenile program. I felt like I was a chaperone at a junior high/elementary school dance. I’ve seen that program once (NHK SP) and won’t be revisiting it. That’s sorta how I feel about the Shibutanis. I sincerely doubt that I’ll be watching that program again this season.
 

csparkles

Rinkside
Joined
Dec 4, 2005
I am surprised Ralph / Hill got away with the music for their SD, without a penalty. Harlem Nocturne is not latin rythm.

The original version of Harlem Nocturne is not a rumba, but the version that Ralph and Hill are using is, much like other music being used in the sd's which are not originally latin, but have Latin versions.
 
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