Elvis vs Ilia 1998

janetfan · Aug 7, 2011

herios said:
Did it matter when Ilia Kulik had his giraffe costume interpreting Gershwin? Did that minimize his chances in edging out the competition for the Olympic title?

The costume was ridiculous and if Elvis was not just injured but sick as a dog with the flu, Ilia would have had no chance to beat him.

Giraffe or not, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

And Ilia's program was possibly the worst interpretation of Gerhswin I ever recall seeing.

When it comes to artistic competitive skating Ilia's Gershwin makes Evan look like a genius. :yes:

Perhaps the only luckier Men's OGM winner than Ilia was the one who won in '94. It was unusal to see the 5th or 6th best skater in an event actually win.

I saw him skate Live and he couldnt touch Kurt, Brian B, Elivis or even Victor. He did have the nice puffy sleeves though which still set the standard for " tackiness."

Although that could be debated .....

herios · Aug 7, 2011

Hernando said:
The costume was ridiculous and if Elvis was not just injured but sick as a dog with the flu, Ilia would have had no chance to beat him.

Giraffe or not, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

And Ilia's program was possibly the worst interpretation of Gerhswin I ever recall seeing.

When it comes to artistic competitive skating Ilia's Gershwin makes Evan look like a genius. :yes:

Perhaps the only luckier Men's OGM winner than Ilia was the one who won in '94. It was unusal to see the 5th or 6th best skater in an event actually win.

I saw him skate Live and he couldnt touch Kurt, Brian B, Elivis or even Victor. He did have the nice puffy sleeves though which still set the standard for "Russian tackiness."

Although that could be debated .....

It definitely could, because I completely disagree with you. Ilia was in his own league there technically, and artistically let's put this in a polite manner, Elvis never stood a chance, even 110% healthy. Elvis was a jumping machine, the rest of his skating never stood up to it's rivals, he usually won outjumping them.

janetfan · Aug 7, 2011

herios said:
It definitely could, because I completely disagree with you. Ilia was in his own league there technically, and artistically let's put this in a polite manner, Elvis never stood a chance, even 110% healthy. Elvis was a jumping machine, the rest of his skating never stood up to it's rivals, he usually won outjumping them.

Elvis may not have been your cup of tea but Ilia was a robot on skates and I rarely recall an Olympic champion who so completely ignored the music.
Even Plushy seems like an interpretive genius compared to Ilia.

Watch Ilia's LP again and tell me which part has any relationship to the music. I mean a relationship better than a novice skater :think:

ETA: Here it is , "Robo Cop on ice."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxLRBysvu5g

Trust me, turn off the sound and this program works better as he had vey good jumps. But I can't recall such a lack of attention to nuance and tempos ....

DianaSelene · Aug 7, 2011

Hernando said:
Elvis may not have been your cup of tea but Ilia was a robot on skates and I rarely recall an Olympic champion who so completely ignored the music.
Even Plushy seems like an interpretive genius compared to Ilia.

Watch Ilia's LP again and tell me which part has any relationship to the music. I mean a relationship better than a novice skater :think:

ETA: Here it is , "Robo Cop on ice."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxLRBysvu5g

Trust me, turn off the sound and this program works better as he had vey good jumps. But I can't recall such a lack of attention to nuance and tempos ....

Wow. I always thought Elvis was the robot. I was tired of his ninja/dragon types of programs. He was an excellent jumper, but everything else was not there. Actually, Ilia was not amazing but comparing him to Elvis is too much. He wasn't that robotic.

And Plushenko was indeed an INTERPRETIVE GENIUS. Plushenko compared not only to Ilia but anyone is an interpretive genius. He feels the music with his whole body which is what many skaters can't do.

janetfan · Aug 7, 2011

Evangeline posted this clip on a different thread and easy to see Button called it right (OK, Button was nicer than he had to be :yes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztAA0GpCCKg

Those who think this is musical skating will also think Ilia's "Rhapsody in Bleh" was musical.

R.D. · Aug 7, 2011

IMO skating is half sport and half pageant.

I always personally looked as ice skating more as entertainment than sport.

There are elements of sport inherent in competitive ice skating but once you throw non-sport elements like musical interpretation, costume design, and appearance into the equation, you're right- we're approaching beauty pageant and art show territory. Personally I was never interested in those aspects of skating, and still am not. If I want to experience the performance I'll go to an ice show or watch one on Youtube or something.

janetfan · Aug 7, 2011

R.D. said:
I always personally looked as ice skating more as entertainment than sport.

There are elements of sport inherent in competitive ice skating but once you throw non-sport elements like musical interpretation, costume design, and appearance into the equation, you're right- we're approaching beauty pageant and art show territory.

I can be nicer and say the skaters are fine, dedicated athletes.

I have a different opinion about ISU and many of those who run Natl federations.

I love skating and many skaters.

I wish figure kating was run by more reputable people.
Can you imagine the head of the French federation has said publicly he is willing to do anything to make sure Joubert wins medals. :think:

This is the same guy who was suspended for cheatng and then welcomed back by Cinquanta, who publicly said "I hated to suspend him." :eek:

What a joke and even most pageants have more integrity than ISU.

evangeline · Aug 7, 2011

herios said:
It definitely could, because I completely disagree with you. Ilia was in his own league there technically, and artistically let's put this in a polite manner, Elvis never stood a chance, even 110% healthy. Elvis was a jumping machine, the rest of his skating never stood up to it's rivals, he usually won outjumping them.

I agree. Plus Ilia Kulik had GORGEOUS skating skills, and superior jump technique than Elvis even when Elvis was "on" (IIRC, b/c of his very good technique Ilia can still land a 3A even today, 13 years after his OGM). Frankly speaking, even if both skated cleanly I have little doubt that the judges would've placed Ilia first over Elvis. Not only was Elvis a different skater in 1998 than he was in 1994, but one of the biggest differences between the two was that Ilia was able to make everything look so easy--with Elvis you could tell it was hard work. Plus Ilia was a faster skater overall and had that classical style that the judges loved.

It's a pity that Ilia retired so early and had such an uninspiring LP to win Olympic gold. Some of his other competitive programs--Faust, Liebestraum, etc were actually very, very good on an artistic and technical level.

shine · Aug 8, 2011

Hernando said:
The costume was ridiculous and if Elvis was not just injured but sick as a dog with the flu, Ilia would have had no chance to beat him.

Giraffe or not, sometimes it is better to be lucky than good.

And Ilia's program was possibly the worst interpretation of Gerhswin I ever recall seeing.

When it comes to artistic competitive skating Ilia's Gershwin makes Evan look like a genius. :yes:

Perhaps the only luckier Men's OGM winner than Ilia was the one who won in '94. It was unusal to see the 5th or 6th best skater in an event actually win.

I saw him skate Live and he couldnt touch Kurt, Brian B, Elivis or even Victor. He did have the nice puffy sleeves though which still set the standard for "tackiness."

Although that could be debated .....

I came in here to read about Ashley's new programs, but instead I feel like I'm in some alternate universe reading this whole thing re: Kulik vs Stojko. Gershwin might not be the best program of all time, but saying Kulik "never stood a chance against a healthy Stojko"? I mean, seriously? Or do you think Stojko's Kungfu program was some artistic masterpiece?
And let's not even get into skating skills, lines, stretch, style......etc.

dorispulaski · Aug 8, 2011

Guys, please keep the discussion of men's skating in the 1990's here? The thread drift on the Ashley thread was too crazy to follow, so I split it and moved Ilia, Elvis, and Urmanov here.

demarinis5 · Aug 8, 2011

^Thanks Doris, I thought I was losing my mind reading the posts in the Ashley thread. lol

janetfan · Aug 8, 2011

shine said:
I came in here to read about Ashley's new programs, but instead I feel like I'm in some alternate universe reading this whole thing re: Kulik vs Stojko. Gershwin might not be the best program of all time, but saying Kulik "never stood a chance against a healthy Stojko"? I mean, seriously? Or do you think Stojko's Kungfu program was some artistic masterpiece?
And let's not even get into skating skills, lines, stretch, style......etc.

An alternate universe :think: Do you think GS is the real world

If we compare their records Elvis won three WC's and three other Worlds medals and two OSM's.

What did Ilia win in his career? His record is not even as good as Tara's as a competitive skater.

And if Ilia was such a titan of skating I certainly didn't see it at Nagano. Do we blame his program or was it more about his lack of musicality or a little of both?

Comparing lines is always easy as Elvis was short and built like a bull.
But he did the best with what he had. I saw him Live a couple of times and none of the guys I ever saw projected as much energy to the crowd as Elvis.

When we talk about the innovators it is Elvis who was first with jump combos many of the guys still can't do today.

Funny, because I have never been much of a fan but Elvis certainly worked hard to earn his place in skating history.

Olympia · Aug 8, 2011

We can disagree about who should have won in 1998, and the Gershwin wasn't Ilia's best program ever, but I don't think one can definitively say that he lacked musicality. He was at that point one of the youngest male Olympic champions, and his style was not yet mature. (It's a rare skater who has a stunning style right out of the box--this classification includes, for me, Browning, Yagudin, and Takahashi; feel free to add or subtract) As a pro, Ilia has shown wonderful style and musicality, greatly helped by his work with Kurt Browning. I know it's stretching the issue a bit to cite his post-Olympic career as evidence of his musicality, but no robot could, for example, perform the heart-lifting duet with Katia seen here, choreographed by Sandra Bezic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MpDZf82KYhA

It helps that he looks like a premier danseur noble, but as Evangeline points out, his skating skills are impeccable and he's not getting by on his looks. When I see what kind of skater he became, I can't begrudge him the OGM for a second. As for Elvis, I like and admire him as a skater, and he had his own grace, and I do understand his and his fans' resentment. I would have given him the gold in 1994 against Urmanov, but this is not the way things worked out.

On that subject, it's interesting how many times the OGM for both men and ladies goes to some unexpected skater (at least recently, when the more predictable school figures have been done away with). Someone slips up, someone else rises to the occasion, the judges are a different bunch from the usual world judges and see things differently, the math doesn't work out as predicted, and voila.

bekalc · Aug 8, 2011

I agree that Ilia got a bit lucky by the weak field but he was also extremely young and had yet to develop his own style. His skating skills really were impeccable and he'd have been extremely competitive with Yagudin and Plushenko. Heck I'd point out that given Evan won with a 3axel, that I think Illia could have gone out there with his shape that year and been extremely competitive at 30. I remember people at All Skate were truly amazed by him.

What did Ilia win in his career? His record is not even as good as Tara's as a competitive skater.

Illia won everything that year, up until the Olympics. So I don't see the point of questioning his win. A year before Tarasova had given Illia a ridiculously hard Romeo and Juliet program to test him before the Olympics. A program with tons of transitions etc. She then gave him a much easier program for the Olympic season. The goal was to make the Olympic program feel easy. Their strategy pretty much was to sacrifice 1997 for the Olympics, and it worked. In 1996 he did have a World Silver medal. And as said before he won everything that season in the lead up to the Olympics. So he had firmly established himself as the best skater that year. (I.e he was Grand Prix Final Champ)

I don't see the point of questioning the win of someone who beat all of the top men that year. PRIOR to the Olympics. If Illia didn't accomplish as much in his career, its because he choose to retire. He would have won Worlds easily if he had shown up. And who knows if Yags would have ever had his artistic breakthrough if Illia hadn't turned pro and left Tarasova. If you look at Illia now, its obviously the man became a fine professional skater.

Its not like Illia wouldn't have been extremely competitive later on if he hadn't choosen to quit amateur skating at what 19..It takes freaking time for a skater to get use to competiting at the top level and developing a style. I think that's what happened with Illia. Was Elvis as good as Illia when he was 19, I'd say no.

let`s talk · Aug 8, 2011

Hernando said:
Even Plushy seems like an interpretive genius compared to Ilia.

No men's thread without Plush!

janetfan · Aug 8, 2011

let`s talk said:
No men's thread without Plush!

I don't think that will change anytime soon especially since Plushy still plans to compete.

I agree with what Olympia and Beka said and Evangeline too.
Biut keep in mind the judges did not always love Iliia and his competitive record shows that.

With six Worlds medals for Elvis and only one for Ilia it can be argued how much the judges loved Ilia.

I thought Ilia deserved the Gold in Nagano but found his program very one dimensional. Very polished elements and little of anything else.

Iliai's Gershwin makes the best case yet I can think of for Joesitz and his idea to skate without music.

Kitt · Aug 8, 2011

bekalc said:
I agree that Ilia got a bit lucky by the weak field but he was also extremely young and had yet to develop his own style. His skating skills really were impeccable and he'd have been extremely competitive with Yagudin and Plushenko. Heck I'd point out that given Evan won with a 3axel, that I think Illia could have gone out there with his shape that year and been extremely competitive at 30. I remember people at All Skate were truly amazed by him.

And let's not forget his gorgeous pairs work with Katya. Dreamy.

evangeline · Aug 8, 2011

Hernando said:
What did Ilia win in his career? His record is not even as good as Tara's as a competitive skater.

Ilia Kulik won the Olympics, the European Championships, the Champion Series Final (i.e. old GPF), the Russian Championships, the World Junior Championships and a World silver.

Tara Lipinski won the Olympics, Worlds, the Champion Series Final, and the US Championships.

I'd say Ilia's record holds up against Tara's pretty well, although one should also add the caveat that Ilia had four years on the senior circuit to Tara's two. But in that case, it should also be noted that Elvis spent THIRTEEN years on the senior circuit if we are to brandish medal counts.

Jaana · Aug 8, 2011

bekalc said:
Illia won everything that year, up until the Olympics. So I don't see the point of questioning his win.

Not quite true. Ilia won everything except Skate Canada (did not participate in Europeans). In NHK I think that Dan Hollander was his closest competitor?

Ilia won Championships Series (GP) Final over Elvis and in that win paved the way for his Olympic win, I believe. I always got the impression that if the judges had even a remote choice, they prefered somebody else than Elvis.

gkelly · Aug 8, 2011

Jaana said:
Not quite true. Ilia won everything except Skate Canada (did not participate in Europeans). In NHK I think that Dan Hollander was his closest competitor?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1997_NHK_Trophy

Hollander was 2nd in the short program; Scott Davis was 2nd in the long and overall.

I remember that competition pretty well because the ordinals were so interesting. Kulik popped his triple axel at the start of both programs but otherwise skated clean. He may have had straight first place for the long program.

But for the short program, where doing a single axel instead of a triple jump in combination was a big deduction, few of the judges were willing to put Kulik first or even second in the SP. He won it with a majority of 3rd-place ordinals, because the ordinals for the guys who ended up 2nd through 5th were also all mixed up. As you see, Hollander took 2nd in the short under the majority calculations. At that point or soon afterward we knew how the OBO system that went into effect the next season was going to work. So I calculated what the results would be for that short program under OBO, and either Honda or Guo would have won the short.

I think what was most impressive about Kulik's skating, as mentioned earlier in this thread, was the height and effortlessness of his jumps and the speed and effortless of his movement across the ice.

Opinions about what constitutes great choreography or interpretation or a great performance are highly subjective. Is there a way to write criteria more clearly than for the current program components or for the old 6.0 presentation mark so that we could point to specific criteria and explain why one skater deserves to score higher than another? Or are those decisions destined always to be a matter of "I know it when I see it" and hard if not impossible to explain to others why we think so? And therefore hard to build consensus among fans (or judges) with different backgrounds and different taste?

Elvis vs Ilia 1998

janetfan

Match Penalty

herios

janetfan

Match Penalty

DianaSelene

janetfan

Match Penalty

R.D.

janetfan

Match Penalty

evangeline

shine

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!

janetfan

Match Penalty

Olympia

bekalc

let`s talk

Match Penalty

janetfan

Match Penalty

Kitt

evangeline

Jaana

gkelly

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