Leg wraps during jump rotations

silverpond · Aug 9, 2011

Here's another......I'm sure many of you have noticed that, while most skaters keep their legs tightly wrapped during jump rotations, some skaters bend one leg at the knees during the revolutions. Midori Ito comes to mind, as she always did that.

Is this considered a flaw in technique, one that is marked down by the judges?

Not trying to be nitpicky.....

thumbyskates · Aug 10, 2011

silverpond said:
Here's another......I'm sure many of you have noticed that, while most skaters keep their legs tightly wrapped during jump rotations, some skaters bend one leg at the knees during the revolutions. Midori Ito comes to mind, as she always did that.

Is this considered a flaw in technique, one that is marked down by the judges?

Not trying to be nitpicky.....

Yes - this is -1 to -2 on jump for poor technique/awkward air position - I tend to not knock it off on individual jumps if it is the skater as a whole for every jump (versus just 1 or 2 jumps) - if it's every jump, I'd take it off skating skills and it would be known the skater would be hard pressed to receive higher than a plus one on the positive side.

Air position should be tight in the "backspin" position for proper execution.

Mafke · Aug 10, 2011

Ideally, the legs are supposed to be crossed at the ankles. A bent free (non-landing) leg is called a wrap. There are two degrees.

A full wrap means the skater's legs are crossed at the knees and the ankles are far apart. This is considered to be faulty technique.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX0u7gr1fwC-WE5_XVoujdbrl2H10zIy8e9WrlMkAKheUIC5YFlg

There's also what I call a demi-wrap (can't find a good picture right now) where the ankle of the free leg crosses the landing leg but closer to the knee. IIRC this is not considered as bad (Midori Ito more had a demi-wrap though she had a full wrap at times). It was also hard for the powers that be to call Ito's technique faulty since she was landing jumps and combos other elite skaters of the time could only dream of.

Olympia · Aug 10, 2011

Possibly with the exception of Ito, a leg wrap scares me to death. I'm always sure the skater is going to get tangled up and just drop out of the air in a heap. I find it very hard to watch skaters with a pronounced leg wrap jump, and I can never fully appreciate the rest of their skating, no matter how lovely it is.

luckykid · Aug 10, 2011

Yukari Nakano and Shizuka Arakawa also have leg wrap problem.. Why do they all appear to be Japanese lol

burntBREAD · Aug 10, 2011

luckykid said:
Yukari Nakano and Shizuka Arakawa also have leg wrap problem.. Why do they all appear to be Japanese lol

Yukari had a horrible wrap that really hurt her jumps because she couldn't rotate as fast -- I don't recall Arakawa having a wrap? Maybe on like the 2Lo she tacked on after jumps but a lot of skaters wrap their legs on 2T or 2Los in combination (like Miki Ando purposely does that).

Mafke · Aug 10, 2011

Of course the grand old lady of leg wraps was Claudia Kristofics-Binder of Austria, who was worlds bronze medalist in 81, 82 and Euro champ of 82 (mostly on the strength of her figures). I remember Dick Button ragging on her in 1980 about the wrap seen in all its glory here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T-aoPHob5aM&feature=related

Olympia · Aug 10, 2011

I remember Kristofics-Binder! I was amazed that she placed so high in several competitions, because I would have thought that a leg wrap would mean some kind of deduction for form. It just looked so awkward. She and Nakano have been the two worse offenders for me. Nakano, an otherwise wonderful skater, just never wowed me—because of that wrap. For me it was worse than Caroline Zhang's mule kick on the lutz.

Like you, burntBREAD, I don't recall a pronounced leg wrap on Shizuka. Maybe I'm too distracted by all her triple-triples and that dynamite Ina Bauer, but I haven't ever noticed one when she skates. If she does have one, then she goes on my Exceptions list, as in "I don't warm to skaters with a leg wrap, except for..." Shizuka is one of my faves and always will be.

Mafke · Aug 10, 2011

Olympia said:
I remember Kristofics-Binder! I was amazed that she placed so high in several competitions, because I would have thought that a leg wrap would mean some kind of deduction for form. It just looked so awkward.

It certainly didn't help her but I don't think it hurt her as much as it would now (or as much as it hurt Nakano). While I enjoy a lot of stuff about 70's and 80's skating (I mostly enjoy it more than the modern stuff) I am often surprised at the wonky jump technique that wouldn't be acceptable now. I think back then as long as you didn't fall or pop the judges were happy to give the skater credit for the jumps.

Also, a lot of the insight on the mechanics of jumps and how to train them that's taken for granted now just didn't exist then.

Still, I think Kristofics-Binder did have an overall nice, mature, and fairly musical style. But egad, that wrap! the lower video quality on youtube makes it look like she's got four legs sometimes.....

silverpond · Aug 10, 2011

Mafke said:
Ideally, the legs are supposed to be crossed at the ankles. A bent free (non-landing) leg is called a wrap. There are two degrees.

A full wrap means the skater's legs are crossed at the knees and the ankles are far apart. This is considered to be faulty technique.

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQX0u7gr1fwC-WE5_XVoujdbrl2H10zIy8e9WrlMkAKheUIC5YFlg

There's also what I call a demi-wrap (can't find a good picture right now) where the ankle of the free leg crosses the landing leg but closer to the knee. IIRC this is not considered as bad (Midori Ito more had a demi-wrap though she had a full wrap at times). It was also hard for the powers that be to call Ito's technique faulty since she was landing jumps and combos other elite skaters of the time could only dream of.

Ugh!! That bent/wrapped leg is really unattractive. It looks like an accident waiting to happen, too.

By the way, I recognize the image in your post - 1972 Olympic women's figure skating podium:
Gold medalist, Trixi Schuba, Silver medalist, Karen Magnussen, Bronze medalist, Janet Lynn. :thumbsup:

blue dog · Aug 11, 2011

The worst offender in the last fifteen years was this young lady:

http://youtu.be/badsBSkyL0o

BravesSkateFan · Aug 15, 2011

What is it that causes skaters to have a wrap? Is it easier? Aside from it not being very attractive, why is it cause for being marked down? There are plenty of ugly skating moves that skaters don't get marked down for so I imagine it can't just be that.

mskater93 · Aug 16, 2011

^^^^^^^^^
It's poorly taught technique AND it often results in under rotation in jumps.

Mafke · Aug 16, 2011

I assume that it's a self-taught thing and that at lower levels a wrap makes it easier to get in rotations but hinders jumping at the higher levels by which time it has become part of the skater's muscle memory and is thus really hard to get rid of. In that way I think it's kind of like a mule kick, a way of building torque (or something) that brings early gains and long term detriment.

mskater93 · Aug 16, 2011

Unfortunately, in a lot of cases, it's sort of self taught - the skater *thinks* they are getting the rotation on an Axel or double Salchow or double loop by doing this (but in reality is cheating the rotation of the jump), but then in lessons the coach(es) is(are) not correcting it and allowing the problem to perpetuate. In a lot of situations I've witnessed, the coaches who allow it to perpetuate are also the ones filling their students' and parents' heads with dreams of Olympic glory. A good coach will correct it immediately upon witnessing it before it becomes a bad habit.

Midori Ito's method was totally different and she never really wrapped knee to knee, more ankle to knee. Interestingly it appears if you analyze Midori Ito's technique and other skaters who are in a more tradition tight back spin position, you will see a lot of similarity except Midori never does the "push down to tight backspin position" but is in more the initial lift off position with her free leg. I suspect it's because she was such a big jumper with fast rotation that she didn't have to have the final "push down to tight backspin position" to complete her rotation.

Mafke · Aug 17, 2011

mskater93 said:
Midori Ito's method was totally different and she never really wrapped knee to knee, more ankle to knee.

Yeah, I keep trying (with not much success) to have that labelled a 'demi-wrap'. I suspect that given Ito's anatomy the ankle/knee crossing was simpler and more efficient than the tight backspin position. I also think her legs (considering the power of her jumps) might have had some kind of (natural) mutation making it impossible for skaters with more normal musculature to match.

I wonder what a medical examination would show (or showed if it was done).

mskater93 · Aug 17, 2011

I was supporting your assertions, Mafke, because I never really saw hers as a "wrap" or a product of bad technique.

Heck, she was checking out on the downside of the air position to ensure she wasn't over-rotating her jumps most of the time. In my opinion, she rates as the most incredibly lady athlete in figure skating history.

Mafke · Aug 17, 2011

mskater93 said:
I was supporting your assertions, Mafke

Yes, I know. Thank you. But next time use the term demi-wrap as (I think) one of the posters to popularize the term 'mule kick' (I was using it about Sarah Hughes long before Zhang was around) I'm trying to spread the term demi-wrap for what Ito (my favorite skater ever) did most of the time.

Leg wraps during jump rotations

silverpond

thumbyskates

Mafke

Olympia

luckykid

burntBREAD

Mafke

Olympia

Mafke

silverpond

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

BravesSkateFan

mskater93

Mafke

mskater93

Mafke

mskater93

Mafke

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