What if US Figure Skating used International judges for Nationals?

I tweeted this very question today and it really got me thinking. If we had International judges at our US Nationals, we'd have a better idea of who would score well at Worlds. We'd also alleviate the "home field score inflation" that is so common at Nationals every year. I think that the biggest difference this may have made at the 2011 Nationals would have been in the ladies event. I truly believe that in front of an International panel, Alissa & Mirai would have been the top two. I love Rachael and I'm not saying she didn't deserve the silver, but we all know how International judges feel about her. What are your thoughts on this....not specific to the Alissa/Mirai/Rachael issues but as a general idea. I don't know the protocols for something like this so I'm not sure it's even possible to get ISU judges for a Nationals but hey we can at least scheme about it! And for that matter, if USFSA brought some ISU judges to champs camp, skaters could better prepare themselves before the season even began.

A majority of the ladies panel at 2011 Nationals do have international judging and/or referee appointments.

Do you mean, what if the US Nationals were judged by non-American judges? That would be interesting, sort of like using European judges at Four Continents and non-European judges at Europeans.

I'm sure the main reasons it doesn't happen are 1) the expense and 2) it would take away opportunities to judge at the most prestigious US event for national judges (some of who may be working toward earning international appointments).

If expense weren't an issue, would it make sense to have some sort of exchange program whereby American judges could get invited to judge at Canadian and French and Russian and Japanese Nationals, etc., and vice versa?

Cost, cost, cost. US Figure Skating already raised membership dues this year by a substantial amount of money to both the clubs per member and for individual membership.

Moving judges up the ranks: I beleive that judges have to be National level judges and have judged a certain number of National level events before US Figure Skating can nominate them for International and International Championship judging appointments. If you were France, would you want a "freshly minted" National Judge coming to your championships if there were an exchange program? Yet, how could that judge get their experience if National judges no longer judge at Nationals.

Also, I suspect that even with a panel made of international judges, Mirai would still have been third. Her flying sit spin netted ZERO points. This is more than 1/2 the differential between the two skaters (3.5 points with average FSSp4 GOE for Nagasu added back in). Flatt also had her step sequence called a l3 and Nagasu a l2 which is another 1 point. Also, Nagasu was a little flat and tentative which affected her PCS score (Flatt beat her by less than a point there) and the mistakes at the end of the program most definitely affected Presentation the most. The flat and tentative skating by Nagasu affected skating skills (which she still beat Flatt on) and Interpretation (which she lost by a little). Even if you flipped their PCS marks, Flatt won on tech.

^ There we go. There is no way Nagasu should have been 2nd after that mailed-in FS performance.

Mirai's botched spin alone could have cost her that silver just by the effect it probably had on the PCS marks.

I think inviting international judges could lead to even more controversy than the above mentioned problems. Don't you think the Russian judges would just LOVE to pick who their skaters get to face at worlds? Then again, the way the men's event went this year......

What if US Figure Skating used International judges for Nationals?

Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2011 USFSA Ladies Champion .... Alexe Gilles!






(no slight against ms gilles, just choosing a name from outside the top 10)

Mafke said:

What if US Figure Skating used International judges for Nationals?

Ladies and Gentlemen, your 2011 USFSA Ladies Champion .... Alexe Gilles!

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!!!!


*shudders*










*laughs*

Interesting idea, but I doubt it would ever happen. US judges go through years of training and moving up the ranks -- sort of like competitive skaters -- before they reach Nationals. They have to judge at regionals, sectionals, pass tests, etc, before moving up to Nationals. I also cannot imagine the ISU or the individual skating federations financing the expense of air travel, hotels, meals, and the like.

The only positive aspect, in my opinion, would be the cessation of the "favoritism" that sometimes is displayed at Nationals. Some of the judges come to Nationals with pre-conceived ideas as to who will make the World Team. Sometimes they are absolutely spot-on with their decisions, while other times, perhaps not. There isn't much opportunity to shake up the ranks among the top five, especially with a skater making his/her/their first appearance at Nationals. It would take someone truly exceptional to come into Nationals the first time and win a medal. There aren't that many Oksana's out there, or at least the judges don't recognize her/him/them.

Carlo Fassi once joked on camera about figure skating judges. (sic) "Your first time out, you can skate great, but because the judges don't know you, you receive lousy scores. The next year, you may not skate as well, but the judges will give you the scores you should have received last year."

"Sports Illustrated" once labeled the Nationals judges "The Todd Squad", as a swipe at the high scores they perpetually awarded Eldredge. Not to diminish Todd's ability, but the judges clearly wanted to send him to Worlds or the Olympics as the US Champion.

Then there was the 1976 US Nationals. Dorothy Hamill skated a "comfortable" long program and eliminated several of her jumps. It was more of an exhibition than a competitive program. Linda Fratianne, as the new kid on the block, landed two triples and finished second. Many thought Linda should have won, as she clearly outskated Dorothy. But the judges wanted to send Hamill to the Olympics as the US champion, as that would give her a better chance to medal.

The judges at Nationals always include a reasonable number of judges with high level international exposure, perspectives and responsibilities. Problem is, it is a volunteer position and there is a "feeding" system with people working their way up over many years. From where would the next generation of international judges come from, if they did not have the opportunity to first attain national caliber experience first?

Bottom line, though, they could never fill a panel with judges which distribute across the regions in a reasonably fair way, with just those with international credentials.

As long as the US Nationals serve dual functions, judges, whoever they are, will be influenced by their dual duties and roles. It's a matter of which role they emphasize and take more seriously when there is a conflict. No problem when the prefered Worlds Team members do well and win deservedly. But a decision/choice, neutral or biased, may be made when such is not the case.

Judges may be relieved of this predicament, real or perceived, only if there is a separation of the duties. i.e. there is a different selection committee so judges just judge what they see.

Such sentiments apply equally to international or non international judges, even if their intentions may be different.

SkateFiguring said:

Judges may be relieved of this predicament, real or perceived, only if there is a separation of the duties. i.e. there is a different selection committee so judges just judge what they see.

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Exactly! That's what I keep saying.

mskater93 said:

Cost, cost, cost. US Figure Skating already raised membership dues this year by a substantial amount of money to both the clubs per member and for individual membership.

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I know, this is killing me! Why did they raise fees so much? It went something like from $85 a year to $120. Worse increase than inflation. Before the increase, it was already high enough to make me put off my renewal as long as possible. I don't know how I will keep paying this much every year.

Are you an individual member? The increase was much greater for individual members than for club members. I think the reasoning was to encourage people to join their local clubs.

No I'm a club member. My club went from $100 to $140!

leafygreens said:

No I'm a club member. My club went from $100 to $140!

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Your club raised their rates greatly, then, because USFS increase to the clubs per skater was $10, not $40 and that is a static change for three years. Club--> USFS is $50 per skater from $40. Our club, after much debate, raised our rates to $85 this year from $80 and will raise them to $90 likely next season (2 staged approach for collecting the differential for USFS dues).

mskater93 said:

Your club raised their rates greatly, then, because USFS increase to the clubs per skater was $10, not $40 and that is a static change for three years. Club--> USFS is $50 per skater from $40. Our club, after much debate, raised our rates to $85 this year from $80 and will raise them to $90 likely next season (2 staged approach for collecting the differential for USFS dues).

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I can't remember where I saw it (I think USFS sent out a notification email) but there was a chart showing the rate increases for the next couple of years, and they were substantial starting in 2012. I figured that my club was getting a head start on next year's increase so that they wouldn't lose any money. I have never seen a club (or USFS) increase more than $10-20 a year, but it looks like that is just what they have done starting next year.