Kim undecided on Worlds

After an internet search, it appears that Michelle did have hip surgery after not competing in the 2006 Olympics.

I never thought Yuna looked happy competing in figure skating. I remember Brian Orser saying in an interview that it was very important to keep Yuna a happy skater, otherwise she would probably quit. She looks like she's enjoying herself a lot more doing shows and charity work.

Michelle's hip injury was an overuse injury from having such a long career and for being the "good little soldier" and competing on the GP for as many years as she did. She was hurting as far back as 2003-04 or 05 when she was working with Rafael Artunian. He talked about it in an article - she'd get on the ice, stroke around the rink and he'd look at her. If she shook her head "no" he knew they weren't working on jumps that day because she was in too much pain.

Again, why does "competing in the GP" have to be the singular cause of Michelle's overuse injury? The GP involves between 1 and 3 competitions per year; in addition to those a skater does shows in the fall and spring, and tours in the summer. Skaters like Michelle don't train to peak at GP events anyway, so if anything "competing at World championships" is the more likely culprit if you want to blame a particular event for her overuse injury.

I agree. You can't blame a handful of competitions on Michelle's injury. That was an injury that resulted from 20 some odd years of skating and jumping, and a rather serious one at that.

Here's a link to that interview with her coach...

But when she was examined, they found that the right side of her pelvis was coming loose from her sacrum, and was a long time in the making. That was Michelle’s pain for two years coming to the Olympics...

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I was horrified when I first found that out. I had no idea how bad it was. But she had the surgery and is pain free now... I don't think people realize how taxing figure skating is, not just on your joints but your entire body...

drivingmissdaisy said:

Skaters like Michelle don't train to peak at GP events anyway, so if anything "competing at World championships" is the more likely culprit if you want to blame a particular event for her overuse injury.

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I think the issue is the overall length of the season. If you train hard to compete at Skate America in October and continue training for every event all the way through to worlds in March, that's a lot of wear and tear.

As for what Yu-na Kim owes or is owed, she gave a lot to figure skating. Figure skating gave a lot to her. Even steven.

Mathman said:

As for what Yu-na Kim owes or is owed, she gave a lot to figure skating. Figure skating gave a lot to her. Even steven.

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Yes, ITA. However, continuing to compete is a privilege and, to me, is something you have to earn.

Basically, what troubles me is if a skater competes in only 5 competitions in an Olympic cycle (4 Worlds and an Olympics). To me, that is not giving back, regardless of what you have done in the past. People are going to watch the Olympics (and to a lesser extent the Worlds) anyway, so those are not the events that the ISU needs star power to promote.

For those who are interested a bit more in depth on the subject title question, this is a wonderful documentary that had been aired in Korea recently (translated into English by fans @ allthatyuna.com blog) that indicate her thought process and everything that leads to the WC 2011 and subsequent events that may affect her future decision making.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vcrd_vRTwmQ

Personally, I don't think there's any simple answer for Yuna's next steps, but I would respectfully disagree with drivingmissdaisy (love that movie btw)'s opinion on what constitute as 'giving back' to the sport.

Everyone's journey is different, and one would argue they should. There's only so much time in the world in one's life time, while it is good to continue to strive to fulfill the role of a competitive skater, but when there are other valuable once in a life time opportunities that became available due to what ever success one has already achieved, one should be allowed to exercise these privileges they have earned outright, especially if it means it can make some big differences in the real world outside figure skating. All of which benefit the sport in the long run enormously including raising the profile of the sport.

^ Very nice post. :thumbsup:

I am at work and do not have time to watch the video. I will watch later.
Thanks for video link.

Mathman said:

I think the issue is the overall length of the season. If you train hard to compete at Skate America in October and continue training for every event all the way through to worlds in March, that's a lot of wear and tear.

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That was what I was driving at in general, thanks MM. If you can stay on your "off season" training longer, you can extend out the amount of skating you can do.

I understand your perspectives a bit better now, specifically regarding the length of the season and having to remain in peak form for so long. I'm not picking on Yuna here; I have found the participation of top skaters in GP events problematic for years. The "conspiracy theorist" in me suspects that in some cases skaters who don't participate actively in events are slightly undermarked in important events (Kwan at 2005 Worlds, Cohen's SP at 2010 Nationals, Plushenko at 2010 Olympics, Yuna at 2011 Worlds). Maybe the answer is to shorten the season or have fewer GP events but expand the fields.

Cohen's 2010 National program undermarked?! No way... she got away with two two footed jumps and an uncalled wrong edge take off....

mskater93 said:

Cohen's 2010 National program undermarked?! No way... she got away with two two footed jumps and an uncalled wrong edge take off....

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Really? You agree with these PCS results:

Choreography - Cohen: 7.57 Flatt 7.57
Interpretation - Cohen: 7.68 Flatt 7.64

Pretty much everyone "got away" with wrong edge take-offs, and she got -GOE for her 2-footed Lutz combo. If you think Cohen and Flatt are equals as far as choreography and interpretation I simply disagree with you.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Yes, ITA. However, continuing to compete is a privilege and, to me, is something you have to earn.

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Frankly, it is a privilege for me if I get to watch YuNa skate even just once a year rather than not at all. (And, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't American TV ratings for the 2011 GPF their highest in years when Alissa Czisny, NOT YuNa Kim, won this past season? Thank you, YuNa Kim, for not competing this time around! )

Do you think it would be overall better for figure skating if all eligible skaters who wanted to continue to compete in some form were barred out entirely because they didn't want to do the GPs?

Do you think it'd be better for figure skating if said skaters possibly signed up for the GPs and deliberately put themselves out of contention because they didn't want to train seriously that early in the season? (e.g. skated their programs singling every jump)

prettykeys said:

Frankly, it is a privilege for me if I get to watch YuNa skate even just once a year rather than not at all. (And, correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't American TV ratings for the 2011 GPF their highest in years when Alissa Czisny, NOT YuNa Kim, won this past season? Thank you, YuNa Kim, for not competing this time around! )

Do you think it would be overall better for figure skating if all eligible skaters who wanted to continue to compete in some form were barred out entirely because they didn't want to do the GPs?

Do you think it'd be better for figure skating if said skaters possibly signed up for the GPs and deliberately put themselves out of contention because they didn't want to train seriously that early in the season? (e.g. skated their programs singling every jump)

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Are you arguing that YuNa would have lowered GPF television ratings had she participated? I don't agree with that.

Barring skaters from competing in Worlds and Olympics is not ideal, but it does incentivize participation. Look at tennis; all the top players are participating in Davis Cup/Fed Cup events almost solely to qualify to play in the Olympics. The credibility of GP events is hurt when top skaters don't participate. These are not intended to be "minor league" events; they are to feature top eligible athletes in the sport.

I think at any point of the year any top skater is capable of performing a program where they don't single EVERY jump. (Mao has come close ) Skaters don't completely stop training their triples in the offseason.

Again, if someone retires and moves on it is one thing. If they are injured they shouldn't compete. But if top skaters believe any competition other than Worlds or the Olympics is beneath them, that is what I have a problem with. (Not that I believe that to be the case with YuNa, but if she continues to ONLY compete at Worlds until 2014 I would think so).

drivingmissdaisy said:

Basically, what troubles me is if a skater competes in only 5 competitions in an Olympic cycle (4 Worlds and an Olympics). To me, that is not giving back, regardless of what you have done in the past. People are going to watch the Olympics (and to a lesser extent the Worlds) anyway, so those are not the events that the ISU needs star power to promote.

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how many competitions Plushenko did during 2006-2010? That's never effect he's a lengend.why we so strick on a little girl?

drivingmissdaisy said:

Are you arguing that YuNa would have lowered GPF television ratings had she participated? I don't agree with that.

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No, I am disagreeing with you saying that YuNa Kim is needed as the saviour of the GP. Ratings were NOT higher when she was competing and Alissa Czisny was MIA (but the reverse)

drivingmissdaisy said:

I think at any point of the year any top skater is capable of performing a program where they don't single EVERY jump. (Mao has come close ) Skaters don't completely stop training their triples in the offseason.

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You're missing my point. Skaters who don't want to train hard during the GPs won't necessarily have to if they are dead set on merely getting to Worlds. An "all or nothing" approach may actually lead to some skaters choosing Nothing, and other skaters choosing the All but not actually giving their all. That's worse, for skaters who would actually like to skate in it, and also for the other skaters who would prefer to devote their time to things they find more fulfilling and meaningful. And certain fans like me.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Again, if someone retires and moves on it is one thing. If they are injured they shouldn't compete. But if top skaters believe any competition other than Worlds or the Olympics is beneath them, that is what I have a problem with. (Not that I believe that to be the case with YuNa, but if she continues to ONLY compete at Worlds until 2014 I would think so).

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You do realize YuNa Kim has been one of the most consistently top-performing GP skaters? lawl.

The GP is unfortunately a lot of effort for low prestige. YuNa of all currently eligible female skaters has the least incentive to skate in it, having the most prestigious gold medal as well as arguably the best track record in the GPs (i.e. nothing to prove in the GPs.)

drivingmissdaisy said:

Again, if someone retires and moves on it is one thing. If they are injured they shouldn't compete. But if top skaters believe any competition other than Worlds or the Olympics is beneath them, that is what I have a problem with. (Not that I believe that to be the case with YuNa, but if she continues to ONLY compete at Worlds until 2014 I would think so).

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First, no one (not even Yu-Na) has any idea if Yu-Na will carry on till Sochi, and if so, what competitions other than the Olympics would she compete at. Would she compete at the GPs during the Olympic season? Just one? Both? Would she participate in the GPs during the penultimate season, 2012-2013?

The point of this thread is that Yu-Na is undecided on Worlds in 2012. All we know right now is that she is not participating in the GPs for the 2011-2012 season. She could compete at 2012 4CCs and/or Worlds. She could skip the rest of this season entirely. She could return for a full season next year.

I think it's premature to pass judgment on a skater competing in "only 5 competitions in an Olympic cycle" when, for all you know, Yu-Na could retire now and never return, which in your words is "one thing" that you wouldn't have a problem with.

In addition, the pressure that Yu-Na faces every time that she steps on the ice was insane even before she won the Olympics, where people expected her to set records every time, even on the GP. And one thing I appreciated about Yu-Na is that she did take her GP events seriously, and she trained hard for them, and did her best to debut new programs well. But when you set the standard that high, it becomes even more difficult to meet expectations the next time out. Competing is a lot easier when you're at the beginning you have nothing to lose and no one expects anything of you. When you're the Olympic champion, even competing on a GP becomes a big deal.

Should Yu-Na continue to compete, I'll simply be thankful that I get to see her skating in a competitive setting again. But she's done enough for the sport already that I don't see how her choices in the future, whether she competes fully, or on a limited schedule, or she retires, is disrespecting the sport. This is a young woman who dragged herself through serious injuries during the year she debuted on the senior Grand Prix in 2006-2007 to compete in both of her assigned GPs, qualified for the GPF, where she again skated in serious pain, and won. For six straight years, Yu-Na competed at two JGP events or two GP events, and qualified for the JGPF or the GPF every year (and won 4 out of those 6).

Yu-Na has talked about how she was in so much pain during the 2006-2007 season, and was surprised at how good the results were considering her condition. And she was again in serious pain for 2008 Worlds, where she managed to win the free skate and medal. That is an awful lot of pain to endure for the sake of this sport.

Even if Yu-Na chooses a path that is away from competitive ice, she can still help promote the sport of skating. For example, Yu-Na taking part in the Pyeongchang bid led her to meeting and inspiring young skaters in South Africa, one of whom was quite emotional as she talked about how unbelievable, how unreal it was to meet an Olympic champion.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=db-Jo1eln80&feature=player_detailpage#t=54s

Yu-Na Kim, giving back to her sport by inspiring younger skaters.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Really? You agree with these PCS results:

Choreography - Cohen: 7.57 Flatt 7.57
Interpretation - Cohen: 7.68 Flatt 7.64

Pretty much everyone "got away" with wrong edge take-offs, and she got -GOE for her 2-footed Lutz combo. If you think Cohen and Flatt are equals as far as choreography and interpretation I simply disagree with you.

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Actually, I don’t think that this particular program by Sasha was especially well choreographed. It seemed like she just tacked three jumping passes onto the front of an SOI program. Rachael’s Sing Sing Sing program at least had better spacing of the elements, with a double Axel at the end. I also did not see anything extra-special in the matching of movement to musical phrase in Ssaha’s program.

Where Sasha rules is not in choreography/composition and interpretation, but in P&E. She has the “it” factor. Her P&E scores were substantially higher than Rachael’s and Mirai’s (including an 8.75), as appropriate.

If you like conspiracy theories (who doesn’t? ) the one that had the greatest currency leading up to 2010 Nationals was that.NBC television would pressure USFS to keep Sasha in the mix as long as possible to boost ratings.

Here is an interesting interview with Lori Nichol, who worked with all three (Sasha, Rachael, and Mirai) that year. About Sasha’s LP Nichol says

“She came to me with her [free skate] music, Beethoven's "Moonlight Sonata," which she had been using for a show program last year," Nichol said.

"So I didn't choose the music, nor did I use my normal music editor, Lenore [Kay]. That was a little difficult; I wasn't in total agreement with some of the musical phrases, but by then it was so close to U.S. nationals, and she was comfortable with it."

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I wonder what Sasha was planning for an LP in her two Grand Prix events, if she hadn't been forced to withdraw with injuries.

drivingmissdaisy said:

Barring skaters from competing in Worlds and Olympics is not ideal, but it does incentivize participation. Look at tennis; all the top players are participating in Davis Cup/Fed Cup events almost solely to qualify to play in the Olympics. The credibility of GP events is hurt when top skaters don't participate.

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I think the ISU is doing all it can to beef up the Grand Prix, including giving financial incentives to stars who are willing to compete in three events.

One difference between figure skating and tennis is the role of the National Federations. Skaters do not earn their way to Worlds, they are sent to Worlds by their Federations. If the Korean federation sends Kim, that’s it. It doesn’t matter if she is in the ISU’s dog house or not., as long as no rules have been broken.. (Maybe the judges will pick on her once she gets there, though.)

drivingmissdaisy said:

Really? You agree with these PCS results:

Choreography - Cohen: 7.57 Flatt 7.57
Interpretation - Cohen: 7.68 Flatt 7.64

Pretty much everyone "got away" with wrong edge take-offs, and she got -GOE for her 2-footed Lutz combo. If you think Cohen and Flatt are equals as far as choreography and interpretation I simply disagree with you.

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If Cohen had done the exact same short program at the Olympics she would not have broken 70, thus it is hard to argue she was undermarked. As for the scoring between her and Flatt in the short program at Nationals, Cohen deserved more in PCS compared to Flatt but much less in comparision on TES, and overall should have been behind Flatt rather than ahead.

pangtongfan said:

If Cohen had done the exact same short program at the Olympics she would not have broken 70, thus it is hard to argue she was undermarked. As for the scoring between her and Flatt in the short program at Nationals, Cohen deserved more in PCS compared to Flatt but much less in comparision on TES, and overall should have been behind Flatt rather than ahead.

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DING! DING! DING!
I went back and looked at the protocols because I felt the comment that Cohen was undermarked to be more skate fan-ish than fact driven. Cohen was barely punished for her 2 footed jump (should have been an automatic -1 from each judge and if the judges felt it was egregious, -2, but only 2 judges chose to give her the deduction for it at all, in fact she only got -0.14 negative GOE for it).
Here's the scoring breakdown:
Nagasu: 40.2/29.86 = attention call on the 3Lz take off. PCS breakdown: 7.43/7.07/7.75/7.57/7.5
Cohen: 39.26/30.37 = no attention or wrong edge take off for her 3z, no real negative GOE for the 2 ft jump. PCS breakdown: 7.61/7.14/7.96/7.57/7.68
Flatt: 39.39/29.96 = 3+3 included. PCS breakdown: 7.39/7.18/7.68/7.57/7.64

Actually, looking at the scores, I think Nagasu was undermarked on PCS because based on the objective criteria of SS, she should have won that category HANDS DOWN over the other 2, not been second to Cohen who doesn't have the same power, security, or depth of edge and for Nagasu's SS mark to be that close to Flatt is ridiculous.