Best female skater never to have won a world title ?

Vash01 · Oct 17, 2011

drivingmissdaisy said:
I have to say Bonaly, she beat all the top competitors of her generation and won so many titles outside of Worlds and Olympics. Plus, of those who did not win she came the closest (missed '93 5 judges to 4, '94 5 to 4, and I think '95 5 to 4). Of course, she did not have good fundamentals and would have scored poorly under COP, but she was unique and I appreciate that she never tried to conform to what others expected her to.

I agree. She came close to winning at least twice. She was a great show skater and very popular with the audiences. She had her unique style, though I wish she had worked on her edges. I would have liked to see her win a world title because she really challenged herself athletically.

prettykeys · Oct 17, 2011

I don't have a deep historical perspective, but from what I've read about and seen of Janet Lynn, I agree with her as the choice since she was so far ahead of her contemporaries in free skating.

iluvtodd · Oct 17, 2011

I must add Joannie and Laurence Owen (oh, what might have been?) to the list!

museksk8r · Oct 17, 2011

Janet Lynn, Joannie Rochette, and Carolina Kostner, most definitely.

jcoates · Oct 17, 2011

The argument can be made and was at the time, that Bonaly never should have gotten as close as she did to winning gold. There was always a lot of sensitivity around her scores and any criticism leveled against her.

A strong argument could have been made that Chen should have been 1st in 1993 and that Bonaly should have been 3rd. Her program was easily the most balanced of the three medalists and had plenty of dfficulty. Baiul did no jump combos and only one of each. Bonaly's basic skating quality was still pretty weak, especially in the second half of the program. I think Kerrigan's meltdown largely affected the outcome. Since she skated after all of them, I'm sure some of the judges were holding their marks rather each program individually. I have to say, I was very surprised that she got any first place votes in 94 or 95. Sato and Chen were both so clearly superior on a basic level, that there never should have been a question.

periperi · Oct 17, 2011

^^ I agree with this argument.

I would go with Caro, but she is still competing. Instead, I'll go with Joannie. Tonya and Josée follow.

Tonichelle · Oct 17, 2011

Janet Lynn, Josee Chouinard, Sasha Cohen, Angela Nikodinov.. though I think I say that mainly because they're some of my favorites.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 17, 2011

jcoates said:
The argument can be made and was at the time, that Bonaly never should have gotten as close as she did to winning gold. There was always a lot of sensitivity around her scores and any criticism leveled against her.

A strong argument could have been made that Chen should have been 1st in 1993 and that Bonaly should have been 3rd. Her program was easily the most balanced of the three medalists and had plenty of dfficulty. Baiul did no jump combos and only one of each. Bonaly's basic skating quality was still pretty weak, especially in the second half of the program. I think Kerrigan's meltdown largely affected the outcome. Since she skated after all of them, I'm sure some of the judges were holding their marks rather each program individually. I have to say, I was very surprised that she got any first place votes in 94 or 95. Sato and Chen were both so clearly superior on a basic level, that there never should have been a question.

I think it should have been close, and I would have given her the nod in 94. Sato's skating is terrific, but Bonaly had a 3-3 sequence and a 3-3 combo (which was underrotated, but that wasn't really scrutinized until after the 2002 Olympics) and arguably better presentation skills. I liked many of Sato's professional programs but didn't like what she presented as an amateur.

Tonichelle · Oct 18, 2011

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think it should have been close, and I would have given her the nod in 94. Sato's skating is terrific, but Bonaly had a 3-3 sequence and a 3-3 combo (which was underrotated, but that wasn't really scrutinized until after the 2002 Olympics) and arguably better presentation skills. I liked many of Sato's professional programs but didn't like what she presented as an amateur.

But Bonaly did? um...

genki · Oct 18, 2011

I would not include Yukina Ota, though I loved her skating, because she never even competed at senior worlds.

Hi Vash01

Yukina made a senior debut in 2004 and won 4cc.

http://youtu.be/2y1pEqiKTmk

I love her skating so much for it's beauty and elegance.

It was so sad that she never recovered from her injury completely.
But she still does commentary and shows in Japan now.

evangeline · Oct 18, 2011

drivingmissdaisy said:
I think it should have been close, and I would have given her the nod in 94. Sato's skating is terrific, but Bonaly had a 3-3 sequence and a 3-3 combo (which was underrotated, but that wasn't really scrutinized until after the 2002 Olympics) and arguably better presentation skills. I liked many of Sato's professional programs but didn't like what she presented as an amateur.

I too thought Yuka was quite bland as an amateur skater, but she deserved the world title in 1994. Bonaly's 3-3s were done with some highly dubious jump technique and while I admit that Bonaly had some flair in her presentation, the effect was ruined by her utter lack of stretch and line. Plus given the vast differences between the two in terms of basic skating skills and the fact that this is a skating as opposed to a jumping competition, Sato should've won in 1994.

If anything, I would say that Bonaly has a more realistic claim to the 93 world title then 94....Baiul's lack of technical content and penchant for two-footing really has not stood the test of time.

ETA: to answer the original question posed by the thread, I'm going to go for Janet Lynn and Sasha Cohen. Lynn for obvious reasons, and Cohen mostly because of the fact that the 2006 world gold practically had her name engraved on it...at least it did before she skated her LP.

Kwanford Wife · Oct 18, 2011

On principle, I hate wuz robbed conversations because they always come down to personal favorites vs. respecting the sport of figure skating (sorry, but as much as I love Angela and Alissa, I cannot think of a scenario where their lack of a world title is surprising...) so I must sort my answers into shoulda, coulda, woulda, and SERIOUSLY? catergories based on the actual competitions:

Shoulda (nobody's fault, but their own - wanna win, gotta compete to win)
Janet Lynn - I know, yall can beat & ban me later... I love her too, but it is what it is...
Sasha Cohen - coulda woulda shoulda
Nancy Kerrigan - granted, I should care more, but I just don't so this might not be fair

Coulda (awww... this made me sad)
Tonya Harding

Woulda (different circumstances, different result)
Sarah Hughes

SERIOUSLY?!?
Bonaly - the only skater that I can honestly say was flat out cheated of a world title. People talk about her poor sportsmanship in '94 but that girl was robbed & I totally understan her reaction. '93 falls under the Woulda catergory because in hindsight Baiul had technical issues, but as one who totally and completely drank the Oksana kool-aid during that competiton, I can't deny her that title.

Olympia · Oct 18, 2011

I know that any "wuzrobbed" in the case of Janet Lynn was mostly done by herself to herself. But she still was the greatest skater of her time (except in school figures). So in terms of the parameters of the question, to me she is the answer at the top of my list: the best skater never to have won a world title. Her skating hasn't gone stale; it still enchants when seen on YouTube despite the fact that some ladies have done triple axels and even quad jumps.

As for Yuka vs. Bonaly, I always come down on Yuka's side because of the sheer beauty of her basic skating. Someone once compared her footwork with Surya's, and Surya almost always skated in one direction and used short, choppy strokes. Yuka executed all sorts of thrilling bladework, changes in direction and balance, and lovely positions. Her carriage was splendid. Certainly Surya was a great jumper who brought a lot to skating, and I am sorry she never won a Worlds. But her basic skating was utilitarian, with not much stretch to it. I can't have any regret that Yuka won instead of Surya that year.

Sasha...another one who couldn't get out of her own way. She certainly could have had the world gold for the taking in 2006. She had a wonderful blending of flexibility and power. Most bendy sorts barely make it into the top ten, but she was on the podium pretty consistently for a few years. She had a mature style from an early age and was remarkably accomplished for a supposed head case. So she'd be pretty high up on my list of greatest never to get a gold.

Vash01 · Oct 19, 2011

Kwanford Wife said:
On principle, I hate wuz robbed conversations because they always come down to personal favorites vs. respecting the sport of figure skating (sorry, but as much as I love Angela and Alissa, I cannot think of a scenario where their lack of a world title is surprising...) so I must sort my answers into shoulda, coulda, woulda, and SERIOUSLY? catergories based on the actual competitions:

Shoulda (nobody's fault, but their own - wanna win, gotta compete to win)
Janet Lynn - I know, yall can beat & ban me later... I love her too, but it is what it is...
Sasha Cohen - coulda woulda shoulda
Nancy Kerrigan - granted, I should care more, but I just don't so this might not be fair

Coulda (awww... this made me sad)
Tonya Harding

Woulda (different circumstances, different result)
Sarah Hughes

SERIOUSLY?!?
Bonaly - the only skater that I can honestly say was flat out cheated of a world title. People talk about her poor sportsmanship in '94 but that girl was robbed & I totally understan her reaction. '93 falls under the Woulda catergory because in hindsight Baiul had technical issues, but as one who totally and completely drank the Oksana kool-aid during that competiton, I can't deny her that title.

I liked the way you broke it down, and I agree most of it. Bonaly should have won over Baiul in 1993. She had a very strong freeskate, and even though her basic skating and edges were inferior, she had a very strong technical content. IMO it was closer in 1994 between her and Yuka Sato. Surya did make some mistakes in her free skate and gave the judges an opportunity to mark her down. Yuka's skating was really colorless and in that diluted field it came down to who had better basic skating skills.

Tonya was perhaps the strongest skater of all to not win a world title.

jcoates · Oct 19, 2011

I don't know why people keep overlooking Chen's performance in 93. Yes she was fifth in the SP, but under the ordinal system of 6.0, all she needed to do to win was be first in the LP and have one other skater beat the SP leader, Kerrigan. Nancy imploded and was 7th IIRC in the LP. Chen clearly was better technically than Baiul (but went unrewarded) and was arguably better than Bonaly overall. She had far fewer deficiencies than Surya on a basic level, far better choreography and enough difficulty to certainly make a case for her. The same could be said of the 94 Olympics. Of the three medalists, she executed the hardest program. All three had mistakes. In hindsight, I'd argue that Chen should have won far more titles than she did based on the way her competition performed in 93 and 94.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjguVu__BuE

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NL2Jlg-O_lU&feature=related

vs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfdfjIoGWw4&feature=related

Kwanford Wife · Oct 19, 2011

Olympia said:
I know that any "wuzrobbed" in the case of Janet Lynn was mostly done by herself to herself. But she still was the greatest skater of her time (except in school figures). So in terms of the parameters of the question, to me she is the answer at the top of my list: the best skater never to have won a world title. Her skating hasn't gone stale; it still enchants when seen on YouTube despite the fact that some ladies have done triple axels and even quad jumps.

As for Yuka vs. Bonaly, I always come down on Yuka's side because of the sheer beauty of her basic skating. Someone once compared her footwork with Surya's, and Surya almost always skated in one direction and used short, choppy strokes. Yuka executed all sorts of thrilling bladework, changes in direction and balance, and lovely positions. Her carriage was splendid. Certainly Surya was a great jumper who brought a lot to skating, and I am sorry she never won a Worlds. But her basic skating was utilitarian, with not much stretch to it. I can't have any regret that Yuka won instead of Surya that year.

Sasha...another one who couldn't get out of her own way. She certainly could have had the world gold for the taking in 2006. She had a wonderful blending of flexibility and power. Most bendy sorts barely make it into the top ten, but she was on the podium pretty consistently for a few years. She had a mature style from an early age and was remarkably accomplished for a supposed head case. So she'd be pretty high up on my list of greatest never to get a gold.

I so agree with Janet Lynn and she will always be the prototype of what a figure skater should aspire to... It kills me that the sheer beauty of her skating was not rewarded with higher titles, but in terms of the SPORT part of skating... sigh...

I think in 100 years when we're all dead and gone, people will still debate who should've won the 1994 Worlds Title... Gotta love figure skating and its fans!

Layfan · Oct 19, 2011

Olympia said:
I know that any "wuzrobbed" in the case of Janet Lynn was mostly done by herself to herself. But she still was the greatest skater of her time (except in school figures). So in terms of the parameters of the question, to me she is the answer at the top of my list: the best skater never to have won a world title. Her skating hasn't gone stale; it still enchants when seen on YouTube despite the fact that some ladies have done triple axels and even quad jumps.

As for Yuka vs. Bonaly, I always come down on Yuka's side because of the sheer beauty of her basic skating. Someone once compared her footwork with Surya's, and Surya almost always skated in one direction and used short, choppy strokes. Yuka executed all sorts of thrilling bladework, changes in direction and balance, and lovely positions. Her carriage was splendid. Certainly Surya was a great jumper who brought a lot to skating, and I am sorry she never won a Worlds. But her basic skating was utilitarian, with not much stretch to it. I can't have any regret that Yuka won instead of Surya that year.

Sasha...another one who couldn't get out of her own way. She certainly could have had the world gold for the taking in 2006. She had a wonderful blending of flexibility and power. Most bendy sorts barely make it into the top ten, but she was on the podium pretty consistently for a few years. She had a mature style from an early age and was remarkably accomplished for a supposed head case. So she'd be pretty high up on my list of greatest never to get a gold.

I have not much else to add to this, Olympia. Well put on all three skaters. Regardless of whether Bonaly wuzrobbed, she doesn't strike me as "the greatest skater never to"... that title certainly goes to Janet Lynn. I have no hesitation in calling Janet a "great" but Surya? She was certainly memorable and added to figure skating and she was certainly a star but I don't know about a great.
I am glad somebody mentioned Tiffany Chin, although whether she ever rose to become a "great" is debatable. Sasha is always controversial. She certainly makes my list of some of the greatest women never to win a world title and 2006 will always be the most frustrating of all - it was absolutely hers to lose. She also had a great shot in 2004 but at least she didn't fall apart then. Still, the title would probably have been hers had it not been for a couple of shaky landings. Story of her career. I think if Sasha had been perfect in 2005, Irina still would have won. Irina was phenomenal that night.
To me Sasha is one of the greats but not in a undisputed way like Janet.

jenaj · Oct 19, 2011

Kwanford Wife said:
On principle, I hate wuz robbed conversations because they always come down to personal favorites vs. respecting the sport of figure skating (sorry, but as much as I love Angela and Alissa, I cannot think of a scenario where their lack of a world title is surprising...) so I must sort my answers into shoulda, coulda, woulda, and SERIOUSLY? catergories based on the actual competitions:

Shoulda (nobody's fault, but their own - wanna win, gotta compete to win)
Janet Lynn - I know, yall can beat & ban me later... I love her too, but it is what it is...
Sasha Cohen - coulda woulda shoulda
Nancy Kerrigan - granted, I should care more, but I just don't so this might not be fair

.

I agree that Janet Lynn has herself to blame for not winning Worlds in 1973, when figures were devalued especially for her. But I'm not so sure in other instances. Certainly, she was hurt by the weight given to figures at the Olympics in 1972. There was really nothing she could do to overcome that. There aren't enough videos of other Worlds to judge.

After reading through and thinking about it, I put Janet first as the best never to win Worlds and Sasha Cohen second.

blue dog · Oct 19, 2011

In order of preference (mine):

1. Janet Lynn

http://youtu.be/2nAx6VeScsg

2. Elizabeth Manley

http://youtu.be/qMPyX_iMD-s

3. Tonya Harding

http://youtu.be/T3_sayFmtrE

4. Maribel Vinson (no footage)

5. Sasha Cohen

http://youtu.be/qJcBumon65I

6. Surya Bonaly

http://youtu.be/_GY0H__gqgQ

silverpond · Oct 19, 2011

Without a doubt - IMHO - Janet Lynn was the greatest woman skater to not win a World title. She had the misfortune of competing when compulsory school figures were part of the competition, and she shared the ice with Beatrix Schuba, who was probably the best school figures skater of all time.

Best female skater never to have won a world title ?

Vash01

prettykeys

iluvtodd

museksk8r

jcoates

periperi

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

drivingmissdaisy

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll

genki

evangeline

Kwanford Wife

Olympia

Vash01

jcoates

Kwanford Wife

Layfan

jenaj

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

silverpond

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