LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread

thumbyskates · Oct 24, 2011

My question is how can someone be robbed when they won the long program? I haven't watched the shorts or longs yet, that's today's goal, but Kostner won the free - she couldn't make up for the point difference. It was so super close that if Kostner had tried one difficult triple, even with a fall, she would have more than likely won. Hmmmmm.

bekalc · Oct 24, 2011

thumbyskates said:
My question is how can someone be robbed when they won the long program? I haven't watched the shorts or longs yet, that's today's goal, but Kostner won the free - she couldn't make up for the point difference. It was so super close that if Kostner had tried one difficult triple, even with a fall, she would have more than likely won. Hmmmmm.

Kostner can be robbed easily if she didn't get as many points in the free as she deserved. Alissa in the short won both the TES and the PCS I believe and rightfully soo. Well in the long Kostner only won the TES and people are criticizing the decision of the judges to give Alissa higher PCS. Especially in the area of Skating Skills.

If Alissa had been marked lower in PCS and Kostner but had rotated a jump and so still won, I think people would have lived with the results. But when you look at the protocols, there's some real questions on how the judges judged the PCS here. I mean how does Alissa with a splat, skating much slower as well. Warrant higher Skating skills mark than a close to clean Kostner? Yes Alissa has nice edges, but so does Kostner. Many people feel that Kostner has pretty much the best basics of all the ladies. Those live said that yes Kostner was faster, had better flow accross the ice. Choregraphy/transitions I guess can be a matter of a opinion. But SS in this case?

Just switch the points Alissa got for Skating Skills with Kostner's, and Kostner wins. That's why people are wuz robbing.

fairly4 · Oct 24, 2011

congratulations to all medalist. good job to both alissa, and carolina kostner, victoria helgesson for coming in third.

good luck to all.
also i was glad caroline zhang skated decent in the short.
i hope she doesn't give up in skating and continues she has improved alot.
her speed, height etc.
she is showing signs of her old self. sorry about the falls. but for me scores were about right for zhang and others.
alissa & kostner matter of preference, so could have went either way (of course i am biased-i am american and held in america)sorry.

well both carolina kostner, alissa will skate at france another showdown with elizavetha.

Mathman · Oct 24, 2011

Kostner deliberately lowered the technical content of her program in order to maximize her CoP points by skating cleanly and with expression and flow. (The Lysacek strategy.) She also held back on the speed a little bit -- in the past sometimes her speed led to a loss of control.

Last year she didn't have any choice but to do this, because of injury. But it worked so well for her that she seems to have embraced this strategy.

Alissa went the opposite way, trying a 3Lz/3T that cost her points and left her too off-balance to get herself together for her next jump, the flip that she fell on.

It will be interesting to see how the two competing strategies pay off as the season progresses.

glam · Oct 24, 2011

IMO, if this competition hadn't been in the US, Kostner would have won.

bekalc · Oct 24, 2011

Mathman said:
Kostner deliberately lowered the technical content of her program in order to maximize her CoP points by skating cleanly and with expression and flow. (The Lysacek strategy.) She also held back on the speed a little bit -- in the past sometimes her speed led to a loss of control.

Last year she didn't have any choice but to do this, because of injury. But it worked so well for her that she seems to have embraced this strategy.

Alissa went the opposite way, trying a 3Lz/3T that cost her points and left her too off-balance to get herself together for her next jump, the flip that she fell on.

It will be interesting to see how the two competing strategies pay off as the season progresses.

Reports are that Kostner is practicing working on bringing back the 3lutz. She herself said she only started training fully in July...
My only argument against the whole how dare Caro win without a lutz. Is I think its pretty unfair to say that Miki not having a 3filip is fine, Alissa had no 3 sal her, Kim no loop. But that somehow Kostner deserves to place automatically lower with no 3 lutz. The 3 lutz may be in general the most difficulty jump besides the 3 axel. But thats a general thing. Alissa clearly finds the 3lutz easier than the 3sal.

Add in two that many women don't have both a real flip or a real 3lutz and Kostner had one time did, and I'm even more ready to cut Kostner some slack.

In general there should be a bonus for all who showcase 5 different types of triples correctly.

Mathman · Oct 24, 2011

glam said:
IMO, if this competition hadn't been in the US, Kostner would have won.

I think so, too.

And frankly, I do not understand the concept of home country judging. The international judges do not get paid more if they give the prize to the hometown skater, so what motivation would they have to do so?

As for the hometown crowd, sure you are rooting for your favorite to win. But when your favorite underperforms and they give her the title anyway -- no, that doesn't make the audience happy, not at all.

(Exception: 2004 Worlds men's bronze medal, in Germany. OK, Lambiel was a wee bit better, but local boy Lindemann skated his heart out and I was glad he got a prize.

)

emma · Oct 24, 2011

Mathman said:
Kostner deliberately lowered the technical content of her program in order to maximize her CoP points by skating cleanly and with expression and flow. (The Lysacek strategy.) She also held back on the speed a little bit -- in the past sometimes her speed led to a loss of control.

Last year she didn't have any choice but to do this, because of injury. But it worked so well for her that she seems to have embraced this strategy.

Alissa went the opposite way, trying a 3Lz/3T that cost her points and left her too off-balance to get herself together for her next jump, the flip that she fell on.

It will be interesting to see how the two competing strategies pay off as the season progresses.

I wonder if Kostner''s late start this season also contributed to this early season strategy. Regardless, I do agree that it will be very interesting to see how both skaters progress this season. I do hope to continue to see Kostner clear as she is stunning when clean; if she can do that with a lutz too, that will make the comps very very interesting. I think Alissa is smart to up the ante because she can't hope to make the world team or the world podium depending on others falling/failing. And, I think getting the competition practice for more difficult tech from the beginning is the way to go. I do hope they both succeed in their season plans.

On the SS component; I do agree with others that it appeared to me that Kostner should win that mark. I still can't see highway robbery, but maybe a slightly wuz-robbed is in order. That said, I do feel that not only did Alissa look like a new skater last year, she does, again, to be this year. I wasn't there and will stand correct, but on tv, she appeared stronger, a little faster, and I though her footwork and transitions seemed more complex than last year (hope I'm right, but please correct me if you disagree).

Anyway, all this is jmho.

bekalc · Oct 24, 2011

Mathman said:
I think so, too.

And frankly, I do not understand the concept of home country judging. The international judges do not get paid more if they give the prize to the hometown skater, so what motivation would they have to do so?

As for the hometown crowd, sure you are rooting for your favorite to win. But when your favorite underperforms and they give her the title anyway -- no, that doesn't make the audience happy, not at all.

(Exception: 2004 Worlds men's bronze medal, in Germany. OK, Lambiel was a wee bit better, but local boy Lindemann skated his heart out and I was glad he got a prize. )

My problem with the homecooked judging is that its really unfair to skaters who don't have a home GP this year or ever. Or ever get to skate at a Worlds/Olympics at home. I mean at least in other sports everyone gets to play at home and in the playoffs homefield advantage is earned. Not the case in skating which is why they should be more careful.

PolymerBob · Oct 24, 2011

bekalc said:
My problem with the homecooked judging is that its really unfair to skaters who don't have a home GP this year or ever.

I am not a believer in homecooked judging. The national make-up of the panel might be a factor, but not the location. If a Canadian judge wants to be harsh on a Polish skater, it won't matter if they are in Japan or Finland. If a German judge wants to hold up a German skater, it won't matter if they are in Bulgaria or France.

npavel · Oct 24, 2011

PolymerBob said:
Didn't Alissa do a triple-triple?

no, she tried but didn't succeed

brightphoton · Oct 24, 2011

I would argue that it's the audience that has a slight factor. If an event is in the United States, the Americans are going to favor their own skaters, and cheer louder for them. This has an effect on judges, and causes them to mark skaters a bit higher than they would normally.

Serious Business · Oct 24, 2011

It would be sickening if the results for this minor competition was engineered by corruption and politicking. I really hope that's not the case. Welp, some alternate theories:

Judges are only human and can be swayed by audience reaction. And home crowds are going to cheer extra hard for their own athletes. That could be enough to make a difference.

As people pointed out, higher attempted technical content can create a halo effect for the PCS.

Maybe there's some new memo from the ISU to the judges to tell them to stop lavishing PCS on skaters who have exceptional basic skating skills? Possibly as a reaction to Patrick Chan's dominance last season?

bekalc · Oct 24, 2011

Serious Business said:
Maybe there's some new memo from the ISU to the judges to tell them to stop lavishing PCS on skaters who have exceptional basic skating skills? Possibly as a reaction to Patrick Chan's dominance last season?

Except for the fact that Koster was 1. cleaner than Alissa 2. doesn't mean the person with better basics shouldn't still get higher SS scores.

Mathman · Oct 24, 2011

brightphoton said:
I would argue that it's the audience that has a slight factor. If an event is in the United States, the Americans are going to favor their own skaters, and cheer louder for them. This has an effect on judges, and causes them to mark skaters a bit higher than they would normally.

When the homies skate well, yes, I agree. But when they are clearly beaten and a gastly hush falls over the audience while they wait for the marks, it could go the other way.

Spun Silver · Oct 24, 2011

I have a very odd feeling about this competition. I've never been a Kostner fan but I find myself noting how much better she skated than Alissa. Her speed and flow are better although her spins are worse, and when she hits her jumps they seem much bigger and better than Alissa's to me; and her choreography is a lot more interesting. I guess it's a comment on how lackluster the ladies' scene is these days that Kostner looks so good to me. But that should change when the Russians come marching in. And hopefully when we see Mao, Mirai, and Kanako.

No one is talking about Elene G. but I think her comeback is more promising than Caroline's. She looks fantastic and her costumes and programs were way better than in the past couple of years. To me she's the bigger talent of those two because of her speed and, when they work, springy jumps, vs. Caroline's still labored skating and bottom-heavy build. (Of course ElGed is top-heavy but she's quite slim now.) I was delighted to see that Orser is her coach now. I hope he believes in her and vice versa.

Oddly enough her placements were 10th (SP) and 3rd (FP); Caroline's were 3rd (SP) and 10th (FP). Overall their scores were less than a point apart.

Serious Business · Oct 24, 2011

bekalc said:
Except for the fact that Koster was 1. cleaner than Alissa 2. doesn't mean the person with better basics shouldn't still get higher SS scores.

I'm not saying I would agree with this hypothetical memo or the judges interpreted it correctly. But in any large organization a memo of admonishment can cause over-correction. I'm just speculating on reasons the judges scored the way they did without involving something underhanded from the USFS.

bekalc · Oct 24, 2011

Spun Silver said:
I have a very odd feeling about this competition. I've never been a Kostner fan but I find myself noting how much better she skated than Alissa. Her speed and flow are better although her spins are worse, and when she hits her jumps they seem much bigger and better than Alissa's to me; and her choreography is a lot more interesting. I guess it's a comment on how lackluster the ladies' scene is these days that Kostner looks so good to me. But that should change when the Russians come marching in. And hopefully when we see Mao, Mirai, and Kanako.

See I have to disagree with you. I'd argue that there was a reason Kostner always got those PCS. her speed/flow has always been second to none. She's always had good choregraphy. And her jumps when on were beautiful. Its just been hard for anyone to appreciate any of these things when Kostner was spending most of her time stumbling and falling all over the ice.

Now Kostner is landing a bunch of jumps cleanly. She's not falling all over the place and so we can all appreciate her many wonderful qualities. Qualities that were always there. If she can keep the consistency and add in the difficulty maybe that great 3flip/3toe back. She could more than compete with the Russian babies. She could have competed with Kim and Asada too.

Spun Silver · Oct 24, 2011

Well, there's that. Thank heavens. But when Sasha was skating and Mao, Miki, Mirai, and even Akiko and Ashley were at their best, even a relatively clean Kostner didn't appeal to me. I think her programs have been better on the whole the last couple of seasons. It also helped that her FP dress this year at least covers her butt when she's standing still. I have serious issues with the way she's usually costumed!

bekalc · Oct 24, 2011

Serious Business said:
I'm not saying I would agree with this hypothetical memo or the judges interpreted it correctly. But in any large organization a memo of admonishment can cause over-correction. I'm just speculating on reasons the judges scored the way they did without involving something underhanded from the USFS.

Its not that the USFSA purposely set out to cheat but rather just plan politiks in a close result.

LADIES LONG PROGRAM Thread

thumbyskates

bekalc

fairly4

Mathman

glam

bekalc

Mathman

emma

bekalc

PolymerBob

npavel

brightphoton

Serious Business

bekalc

Mathman

Spun Silver

Serious Business

bekalc

Spun Silver

bekalc

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