How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS? | Page 4 | Golden Skate

How can Kozuka compete with Chan On PCS?

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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Dragonlady said:
That said, one skater I know was told by the judges that they needed to get themselves into the final warm-up group at competitions, because once they made the final flight, their PCS would go up by leaps and bounds. Again, that shouldn't be the case, but this was a senior elite skater in conversation with an ISU GP judge.
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That reminds me of the so-called "halo effect" in Psychometric Theory, a cognitive bias whereby the perception of one trait (PCS in this case) is influenced by the perception of another trait (being in the final group or "reputation") of that person. Since to err is human, I don't think such cognitive bias can be totally eliminated from judging where a certain degree of subjectivity is involved. I nevertheless agree with you that the degree of such bias might have been over-exaggerated.
 
J

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Boeing787 said:
2. PCS is more subjective than TES is. So reputation matters. After all judges are human and cannot be absolutely unbiased.
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Yes, reputation matters; how else would Plushenko get such high PCS scores for e.g. choreography and transitions? And Joubert getting higher PCS score than Buttle at Worlds 2008, that was definetely reputation scoring, LOL. Irina Rodnina has said "first a skater works for a reputation and after that the reputation works for the skater", IIRC.

Boeing787 said:
I thought Kozuka's costume designer did a bad job when I watched his LP in last worlds. And this year she managed to outdo herself! The top is deliciously ugly!
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In my opinion Kozuka has very stylish costumes this season. The best from all men, at least so far.

Kunstrijdster said:
2. He needs to be the clear Japanese number one skater. It really hurts internationally, if you are from a country with a very strong competition. The judges have perceived Kozuka for some time now as Japanese number 2 or 3. He may have surpassed Oda by now, but with Takahashi and up and coming Hanyu, it's very difficult to be convincingly dominant.
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I must disagree. Lysacek was in US Nationals third or second and it did not prevent him from winning the Worlds or Olympics. On the other hand it is true that he was in international competitions the best US skater (in all Worlds competitions he participated and also in 2006 Olympics). He got reputation from those competitions.
 
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skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I watched Kozuka's both programs again, and I finally got what Dragonlady was talking about. Yes, it was his eye that needed to be fixed immediately, the eye that looked toward you but not really at you, the eye that seemed to be focusing on his own world and oblivious to the audience and judges. There were quite a few occasions where his eye focused on the ice like a novice pianist staring at the keyboard for fear of pressing the wrong key. His eye created an invisible wall between him and the viewer. I am not a skater but I imagine it should be an easy fix. During practice, the eye contact, just like hand movement, could and should be included in his training of the choreography: This moment looking straight at Judge #1, the next looking far into the middle section of the audience...All predesigned and practiced. Is that hard?

And I would suggest him to establish eye contact with the judges and audience even before he takes the starting position. After his coach patted him on the back, his eye usually looked down or not very far while he was taking the stand. If I were a judge, my first impression would be: This guy doesn't have too much confidence.
 
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D

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
Jaana said:
Yes, reputation matters; how else would Plushenko get such high PCS scores for e.g. choreography and transitions? And Joubert getting higher PCS score than Buttle at Worlds 2008, that was definetely reputation scoring, LOL. Irina Rodnina has said "first a skater works for a reputation and after that the reputation works for the skater", IIRC.
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First and foremost, any skater who lands a quad and a 3A gets a big boost in PCS scores. We've noted this for a while and have taken to calling it the "quad effect". Kevin VDP received higher PCS scores than Jeremy Abbott at Skate Canada in Quebec City a few years back. Admittedly Jeremy fell two or three times, but still VDP was painfully slow, his program was horrible and the skate was painful to watch, jumps aside. Abbott skated a real program and never gave up on the choreography even with the falls.

Buttle and Joubert: My friend David Forberg, who was there said that Joubert's skate was the performance of the night. And in the case of Joubert and Plushenko, both of these men have speed, power, flow and command of the ice - those qualities that just don't show up on TV. Jeff, is a more introverted skater who draws you into his performance but he doesn't command the ice in the way that Joubert does. Skating faster makes everything you do more difficult. Judges reward that.

Irina Rodnina skated in an era when reputation did matter. She also says that if you want to win, you buy the judges a bottle of vodka. Do you believe that too?
 
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B

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Jaana said:
Yes, reputation matters; how else would Plushenko get such high PCS scores for e.g. choreography and transitions? And Joubert getting higher PCS score than Buttle at Worlds 2008, that was definetely reputation scoring, LOL.
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It's funny that you of all people complain about the reputation in PCS, while your boy Lysacek was the greatest benefiter of all at 2010 Olympics.:p


Jaana said:
I must disagree. Lysacek was in US Nationals third or second and it did not prevent him from winning the Worlds or Olympics. On the other hand it is true that he was in international competitions the best US skater (in all Worlds competitions he participated and also in 2006 Olympics). He got reputation from those competitions.
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Lysacek was everything USFSA had wanted and pushed and the true hope for them in 2009, and 2010 no matter if he was first, second, or third at Nationals.

To be fair, he did have the nerve of steel when it came to competitions which mattered greatly. In 2009, Lysacek was two time Worlds bronze medalist already. Even though he was in third at 2009 Nationals, with Abbott in first (who was placed 11th at 2008 Worlds) and Mroz in second (who was a freshman on national senior level and on international stage), he was still the poster boy and the safest bet for US.

In 2010, even though Lysacek lost to Abbott at Nationals, he was the most hyped male skater in US before and after Nationals, and all the way leading to Olympics. Abbott was interviewed after the Nationals and said that he loved his below the radar position and felt more comfortable that way.

So your example of Lysacek not benefiting from No.1 seed in US wasn't correct. Lysacek was the No.1 in US from 2007 - 2010.
 
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treeloving

Medalist
Joined
Feb 17, 2010
gkelly said:
But the Choreography component is not just a measure of difficult. The word "difficulty" doesn't appear anywhere in the definition of the Choreography component, only in the Transitions component:
http://www.isu.org/vsite/vfile/page/fileurl/0,11040,4844-152086-169302-64121-0-file,00.pdf

On the other hand, the definition of Choreography does include the phrase "structured to match the phrasing of the music" and it does include the words "creative" and "originality."

So if we're talking about scores for Choreography, creativity or how the program go along with the music absolutely would matter more than difficulty, according to the rules.

Maybe you'd rather focus on the Transitions component instead?

.
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When I wrote the more difficult program deserve its merit, I think of it as an general principle. I'm aware that (from ISU guideline) to get a good score in choreography require many thing. What I try to said is , in my own opinion , if A skater has more difficult program than B skater, their deserve merit for it despite of their execution, because there are already execution score.

SkateFiguring said:
I'd like to know how it was concluded that Kozuka's program is more difficult than Chan's? In what way and aspects? Can someone break down and compare the different areas? Is this an experts' consensus? Is it already the premise to extrapolate from?
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Clam -down!!! I didn't means to write that Kozuka program is more difficult than Chan. What I like to say is if he has more difficulty than Chan, it should be score accordingly. Same as if Kostner has better skating skills than Crizny, Ando, Leonova ETC. she should be scored accordingly.

Dragonlady said:
No they shouldn't because it's not just the difficulty of the choreography that's being scored but the execution as well, so if a skater has more difficult choreography but doesn't skate it as well as someone with a slightly less difficult program who performs it very well.
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But shouldn't good execution, got score in execution part?


Dragonlady said:
First and foremost, any skater who lands a quad and a 3A gets a big boost in PCS scores. We've noted this for a while and have taken to calling it the "quad effect". Kevin VDP received higher PCS scores than Jeremy Abbott at Skate Canada in Quebec City a few years back. Admittedly Jeremy fell two or three times, but still VDP was painfully slow, his program was horrible and the skate was painful to watch, jumps aside. Abbott skated a real program and never gave up on the choreography even with the falls.
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How about Artur Gachinski, his PCS in long program was raised by 13 points from junior world 2010 to world 2011, do you think quad is the only thing that raise all this 13 points up? (just wonder).

Another factor I can think of is that he has became senior, but that is also reputation in itself. (of course, he is also improve but is his improvement deserve 13 more points)

Also, how about this girl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efy7E4I2OY0, her PSC is always 3 -4 in competition, but does she deserve that? (I'm sorry I can't find her international competitive program on youtube)

p.s. I'm not English native spaekers and my language skills might cause some miscommunication, I'm sorry for that in advance.
 
let`s talk

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
skatinginbc said:
I like the program very much and Patrick had done a wonderful job. It didn't appeal to the audience at all? Hm, I heard admiring wows throughout the video, which made me believe that the audience enjoyed it as much as I do.
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The video is not from Japan Open at all.
 
G

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
treeloving said:
When I wrote the more difficult program deserve its merit, I think of it as an general principle. I'm aware that (from ISU guideline) to get a good score in choreography require many thing. What I try to said is , in my own opinion , if A skater has more difficult program than B skater, their deserve merit for it despite of their execution, because there are already execution score.
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There are a couple of places where difficulty would be rewarded. But the Choreography component score would not be the first, second, or even third place to reward it.

Difficult elements will be rewarded in the base mark portion of the technical elements score.

Difficult connecting moves and in-between skating would be rewarded in the Transitions component and also in the Skating Skills component as it applies to more one-foot and multidirectional skating.

So are you really saying that you want to see difficulty rewarded for its own sake somewhere apart from the execution?

It already is. Or should be, according to the rules. There's not much room for fudging the base marks, the province of the tech panel, not the judges, so as long as a skater actually executes difficult elements and has them called as such, the base values will be high.

There are five component marks, and Choreography is not the one where difficulty is taken into account.

Also, how about this girl http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Efy7E4I2OY0, her PSC is always 3 -4 in competition, but does she deserve that? (I'm sorry I can't find her international competitive program on youtube)
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Why do you choose this skater in particular?

There will naturally be some variation in each skater's scores from one event to the next due to how they happen to perform that day, how the judges on each panel happen to use numbers, etc.

Young skaters may show significant improvements from one year to the next. Older or injured skaters may show a decline in skills over time. Both developing and established skaters may be more focused on elements (or remembering the program) at early-season competitions and may skate more confidently later in the season.

But at a stable point in the skater's career, the variation is not going to be huge, so the scores will probably remain within the same general point range. E.g., maybe 4s on a good day with a generous panel, 3s on a worse day with a stricter panel.

Are you asking why there isn't more variation from one competition to the next? From one component to another? Or where this particular skater fits in, skillwise, against the field she's competing against?

p.s. I'm not English native spaekers and my language skills might cause some miscommunication, I'm sorry for that in advance.
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Thanks, we'll keep that in mind.
 
S

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Dragonlady said:
First and foremost, any skater who lands a quad and a 3A gets a big boost in PCS scores. We've noted this for a while and have taken to calling it the "quad effect".
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Another example of "Halo Effect". PCS is certainly affected by one's reputation, ability to perform a difficult or rare element (quad), placement in the short program, etc. Whether they should is a different matter, but their effect on the score is surely there.

Dragonlady said:
She (Irina Rodnina) also says that if you want to win, you buy the judges a bottle of vodka. Do you believe that too?
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If Dragonlady said so, I would believe it.:p:p If Irina Rodnina (I have no idea who she is) said so--I don't know--it would kind of linger in mind, to tell the truth.
 
B

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
SkateFiguring said:
I'd like to know how it was concluded that Kozuka's program is more difficult than Chan's? In what way and aspects? Can someone break down and compare the different areas? Is this an experts' consensus? Is it already the premise to extrapolate from?
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I'm not an expert on music. But I'd like to add in my two cents.

Difficult doesn't mean good or fit.

What I meant difficult was, from my understanding of this music, (Though my ability of understanding music is limited. I wouldn't want to flash my ability or force my view of the music to anyone, especially on figure skating boards where there are a lot of accomplished musicians and dancers and artists.) it's difficult to use body language to express the deep feelings and complicity of it. Sometimes, I feel that, in some part, it could be expressed better on a dance floor with little or no obvious movements, and without CoP's requirement on transitions. I felt in some parts, Kozuka's frantic movements were too much for me to handle. I'd rather close my eyes and listen to the music itself instead.

It's not the question of whether choosing a easy or a difficult music is good or not. It's a question of choosing the right music. I think Chan has chosen a right music in which he could use his body language to maximize the effect of the piece he chose. He could use his body interpret this piece to the perfection without hurting transitions and skating skills. In this sense, I think Kozuka's music has at least a little conflict between interpretations and transitions. He has to sacrifice some on transitions in order to seek the perfection of the interpretation or vise versa. In fact, I believe that Kozuka has done the opposit. He has paid a price on sacrificing some interpretation so he could meet more on the requirement of transition. Therefore I said it's a difficult piece. I wouldn't say it's a great piece for skating.

As of base value for difficult music, my mind had just jumped from difficulty onto base value as I was thinking about gymnastics. I didn't mean to support base value idea in this way. If a music piece is difficult to fit all the requirement that CoP asked, it shouldn't be added an extra value on it.

But because what we are talking about is so subjective, I don't know how the judges interpret them? What we could do just is to analyse both their PCS afterwards and try to guess the reasons why Kozuka recieved low PCS and Chan recieved high PCS.
 
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J

Jaana

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 27, 2003
Country
Finland
Dragonlady said:
Irina Rodnina skated in an era when reputation did matter. She also says that if you want to win, you buy the judges a bottle of vodka. Do you believe that too?
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Wasn´t that Tarasova (about Kwan vs. Lipinski in Nagano)?

Bluebonnet said:
It's funny that you of all people complain about the reputation in PCS, while your boy Lysacek was the greatest benefiter of all at 2010 Olympics.:p
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That is just a biased opinion as your favourite apparently did not win, LOL.
 
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Buttercup

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
Dragonlady said:
Buttle and Joubert: My friend David Forberg, who was there said that Joubert's skate was the performance of the night. And in the case of Joubert and Plushenko, both of these men have speed, power, flow and command of the ice - those qualities that just don't show up on TV. Jeff, is a more introverted skater who draws you into his performance but he doesn't command the ice in the way that Joubert does. Skating faster makes everything you do more difficult. Judges reward that.

Irina Rodnina skated in an era when reputation did matter. She also says that if you want to win, you buy the judges a bottle of vodka. Do you believe that too?
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Jaana said:
Wasn´t that Tarasova (about Kwan vs. Lipinski in Nagano)?
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Maybe we can get Snopes to look into it. Could turn it the whole vodka comment thing is an urban legend! :biggrin:

Re Joubert and Buttle, I knew that Buttle had won at the end of his LP. I also think that they are very different skaters with different strengths in terms of what PCS is supposed to measure. The correct call IMO would have been a virtual tie with Joubert ahead on some components and Buttle ahead on others. Either way, it's a non-issue. The right guy won.

let`s talk said:
Somehow, this article once again shows Chan's attitude to his competitors:
http://www.cbc.ca/sports/figureskat...pf-skating-chan-legacy.html?cmp=twt-cbcsports
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No comment, other than I'm surprised that's not a PJ Kwong article.

:):):)
Poor Kozuka - can't get the PCS his skating warrants and doesn't even get to stay the focus of the one thread he has! Just to pay him the respect he deserves, here's the first time I saw him skate - 2008 Worlds, in what appeared to be a bowling shirt. Yes, I'm a bad skating fan for not having seen him earlier. Note that he is not just looking at his skates! Also, Morozov sighting in the beginning.
 
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gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
skatinginbc said:
If Irina Rodnina (I have no idea who she is)
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Seriously?

Bluebonnet said:
But because what we are talking about is so subjective, I don't know how the judges interpret them? What we could do just is to analyse both their PCS afterwards and try to guess the reasons why Kozuka recieved low PCS and Chan recieved high PCS.
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The PCS can be subjective, especially Interpretation. So really all we can do is guess. Some suggestions have already been made in this thread.

And I wouldn't consider PCS in the 7s "low" except by comparison to others in the rarefied field of top international competitors.
 
B

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
jettasian said:
I don't see anything wrong with his attitude. He has his goals set and working hard to achieve them. And since his score is the highest, so he set his sight to break his own score, so I don't see the problem there.
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Neither do I. He has his record to back up with his words. So what's to complain? All truth in there.
 
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