Do laypeople (non-skaters) understand ice dance?

It's true that their technique improved after they went to France, and good on them for that.

NorthernDancers said:

I'd agree with that. They did some jaw-dropping awful programs in their first season(s) together. Bizarre concepts poorly executed. And I think they only started skating together at Senior? Not sure about that, but I think so. Then they moved to France and became a whole new team that developed and improved every year into something very special. Add in the choreography of David Wilson that matched them so beautifully, and the results were spectacular later in their career. They are poster-children for starting from the ground up at Senior, and sticking with each other, staying focused on improvement, and finally achieving their dreams.

I have a huge amount of respect for them for doing this, and setting such a great example for younger teams coming up. A team doesn't have to win Novice or Junior, or even have an international reputation in order to be successful. It's about a program of continuous improvement, and having the patience and respect for the partnership to do the work over a period of years. So many expect instant resuts these days, and then switch partners when they don't see the medals in a year or two. With talent and hard work, combined with coach and choreographer who are experts in coaching skating and have the best interests of the skaters always in the forefront, it is possible to succeed. D/L prove that.

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Totally in agreement with Northern and Doris. D&L onced moved to France, became a new team, uder Zazoui. Would they have not done the move, they would have had no "turn" at World stage.

I love watching ice dance but I don't understand the judging at all. I have no idea why a team place above another one. Unless it's really obvious but if it's D/W against V/M forget it, I have no idea why one is better.

Well, when the teams are very close in ability, probably either order of finish is justifiable and it comes down to what stood out to that particular panel of judges. (Or, in some cases, what levels the tech panels gave them.)

Between close teams, what stands out to the judges might be too subtle for the rest of us to appreciate, especially on video. But the kinds of differences should be more or less the same as the kinds of differences between a top team and a mid-ranked team, or a middle team and a weak one, which we can see for ourselves. The size of the differences is just smaller.

And if we're talking about top teams, then the level of quality will be high overall for both.

Hmm. Good thread.
As a lay person, it certainly has taken me a while to get into ice dancing in terms of competition but as someone who grew up studying dance, I love watching it even if I don't feel comfortable commenting on it. Heck it took me a long time and lots of youtube watching to learn the difference between a lutz and a flip and even a toe loop and a loop, never mind all the ice dancing terms. But last year I watched the whole ice dancing competition at Nationals and I felt the difference between the top teams and the lesser teams was clear - even if I couldn't put it into words very easily.
Doris is right - if you like dance it's impossible not to enjoy ice dancing even if you have trouble judging the elements, which I do. There is no way you can't be awed by what M&C did at Skate America. Personally, I love that ice dancing is about the intricacy of ice skating instead of the big jumps. It's all about blades on the ice and you can't get away with ugly positions either. I feel that at the moment Tessa Virtue is the best dancer on ice, counting all the disciplines. So, as a former ballet student, I can certainly appreciate what it takes to be an ice dancer, even if I don't really know the terms very well.

A good question. Non skaters likely don't appreciate how difficult ice dance really is and don't get the chance to see how hard the skaters work to perfect their programs. Their lifts are not as dangerous as pair skaters but they are intricate and can result in injury if poorly executed by either skater. Ice dancers spend hours working on their edges as the technical side of ice dance demands deep edge control and deep bend of the knee. If you really want to hear great expertise on ice dance you should listen to Tracy Wilson when she covers ice dance at the competitions. Tracy sees the details that we at home may miss and explains what the skaters did right and what went wrong. My husband and I were watching Skate Canada this weekend and he is not a skater but he really liked Weaver and Poje's new program for the emotion that they were able to convey to the audience through the music and they story they were telling. He enjoyed Virture and Moir's new Fred Astaire and Audrey Hepburn program, but loved the free interpertation of Weaver and Poje. So non skaters can appreciate a good program, but are not as familiar with the technical difficulties and language of ice dancers as skaters are. That is one of the reasons the compulsory dances were done away with at competitions just as figures were dropped from competition. The compulsory dances were mainly for the judges to see how good the ice dancers are at technical steps. I hope this answers your question.

Well, gee, non skaters must have difficulty breathing on their own, then. I don't think making sweeping generalizations helps. Some people - yeah, they don't get it - but there are just as many who do. To suggest I need to strap on skates to truly appreciate the sport is one of the many reasons skating's considered an elitist sport.

I found Judy Blumberg's commentary on Universal Sports very helpful, since she is a Technical Specialist who works senior competitions, and in fact was on the panel at Skate America last week.

She identifies in real time problems that will be reflected in the skater's scores. When a lay person, like me, can understand where the deductions are going to be taken, then the scores become understandable, and the competition looks less like an incomprehensible beauty pageant and more like a sport.

Mathman said:

Well...that's what dancers do. The lift up one foot, then lift up the other.

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Thats adorable!

I think that the commentators can be the difference whether laypeople understand or not. When I listen to the Canadian commentators, like Wilson, Browning, Nichol I think it should be very easy to understand the results because they actually give you an explanation. I have noticed the same with many eurosport commentators, especially the Scandinavian ones and the French and Dutch. The British guys do say something good, at other times they seem completely lost. Sorry to say this.

It's not like Dick Button's "Great lift, ugly feet" that doesn't really tell anything about the scoring, or Bezic who always complains about the judging. Whether you like it or not, the judging is usually quite fair (there are exeptions), and most judges are actually honest working people.

So in reality, with good commentating, it should be no problem for a layperson to understand the sport.

When it comes to dance commentary, I tend to learn more from non-North Americans. North American commentators tend to let their "national pride" color their commentary way too much for my taste in dance. To me, they are just as detailed as Tracy Wilson and Susie Wynne, with none of the national bias (then again, perhaps if they had a team in the top three, their commentary style may change).

Actually, I think casual fans might understand ice dancing better than they understand the singles disciplines. Everyone can see that Virtue and Moir performed an amazing free dance at Vancouver and deserved to win. Although the other guys (Davis and White) weren't exactly chopped liver.

I (a dance imbecile) can usually do a pretty good job of guessing what the judges' rankings will be, even in the middle and lower ranks.

In singles it is not so clear. One guy falls down three times, but skates fast and tries (unsuccessfully) a more difficult jump. Another guy pays more attention to choreography and performance, has cool-looking footwork, and only falls twice. Who wins?

Mathman said:

In singles it is not so clear. One guy falls down three times, but skates fast and tries (unsuccessfully) a more difficult jump. Another guy pays more attention to choreography and performance, has cool-looking footwork, and only falls twice. Who wins?

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Not enough information to go on.

I hope those weren't the two best performances at the Olympics.

One reason I think American viewers have had less understanding of ice dance over the decades, is because it has been called for much of that time by non-ice dancers. While they were not incompetent, there was definitely something missing.

Dick Button and/or Peggy Fleming did the calls on ABC for decades; Scott Hamilton did so on CBS for Worlds and Euros in the 80's and beginning of the 90's (with an occasional assist from Judy); Sandra Bezic did the calls on NBC in the early and mid 90's. Once each of the networks started using actual ice dancer to do the calls, I certainly felt more confident in my understanding. Tracy is definitely everywhere on TV these days (and I say we are all better for it; shes the best in the business at the moment IMO). But 20 years ago, you only saw her on US TV during the Olympics or at pro events. ABC took even longer to bring in a specialist when they hired Susie Wynn (who was also wonderful and is sorely missed) in the late 90s. Still they only really started using her consistently after 2000 when Dick pretty much retired from calling ice dance and then Cinquanta more or less banned him from calling Worlds altogether. Of course NBC absorbed Tracy when Scott brought his crew with him in 2002. Today Judy has returned to the booth for US and is an invaluable resource for understanding the finest details of judging.

So I'd argue that over the last 10 years, coverage of ice dance on American TV has gotten significantly better and the general public has a much better opportunity to understand it than they ever did before. There's been an explosion of technical emphasis in dance coverage rather than just focusing on the beauty and emotion of the discipline. It absolutely makes it easier to understand ice dance as a sport.

jcoates said:

Dick Button and/or Peggy Fleming did the calls on ABC for decades; Scott Hamilton did so on CBS for Worlds and Euros in the 80's and beginning of the 90's (with an occasional assist from Judy); Sandra Bezic did the calls on NBC in the early and mid 90's. Once each of the networks started using actual ice dancer to do the calls, I certainly felt more confident in my understanding. Tracy is definitely everywhere on TV these days (and I say we are all better for it; shes the best in the business at the moment IMO). But 20 years ago, you only saw her on US TV during the Olympics or at pro events. ABC took even longer to bring in a specialist when they hired Susie Wynn (who was also wonderful and is sorely missed) in the late 90s. Still they only really started using her consistently after 2000 when Dick pretty much retired from calling ice dance and then Cinquanta more or less banned him from calling Worlds altogether. Of course NBC absorbed Tracy when Scott brought his crew with him in 2002. Today Judy has returned to the booth for US and is an invaluable resource for understanding the finest details of judging.

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Tracy was brought on board by CBS on the pushing of Scott Hamilton - who suggested her when he jumped over to CBS for the olympics in 91/92. I think once the skaters the were calling were willing to say "hey we aren't as expert at this as we need to be" it really helped the networks to see they could add one or two more experts to the payroll for ice dance...