Can Mirai Nagasu consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition?

skateluvr said:

Daisy, Ashley Wagner can medal at worlds with consistency, fire, great programs. Maybe bronze. Remember Laura Lepisto? Ashley is better and wants it badly. Agnes Zawadski is a very good skater who will improve a lot in presentation. And there may be an unknown coming in. Tara hit like a tornado.

5 foot one inch is the average lady and we all know in ballet, gymnastics, FS, etc, thin is preferred. People are dying to be thin. People get points from judges in Ladies based on body beautiful and pretty face. Let us not forget the beauty aspect of ladies skating. It's very important how you look as you do your triples. I think it's annoying but it's a part of the "package" they love to see, commentators, judges and yes, us.

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I like Ashley a lot actually, but she has had a lot of problems with the SP at Nationals. Again, it's these mental blocks that the current US women have that is troubling; I don't doubt her talent or drive, just her ability to execute when it counts.

Unfortunately, I agree with you that there is a certain "look" that judges tend to favor. I think Rachel has had it especially hard, not only by the judges but even some posters on here who cannot say anything nice about her. But you're right, it's a package and if you are fortunate to be slim and pretty you certainly have a bit of an advantage.

SkateFiguring said:

^^^ of the three Olympics Ladies medalist, Rochette is the littlest at 5'2" while Kim and Asada are 5'4", as is Miki Ando. Chinese Pairs girls are the tallest in the world except for new comer Sui. Asian Americans Christina Gao and Caroline Zhang are 5'5" (as is Czisny) and Mirai is 5'3". Not all Asia Ladies are tiny and none of the current top Ladies are 5'1", young teenagers not withstanding.

As for Men, the shortest ones coming to mind immediately are Scott Hamilton and Shawn Sawyer, not the Asians. Kurt Browning is about Patrick Chan's height, maybe slightly shorter. Then we have tall Men like Lysacek and Sandhu. All in all, I don't think height/body types within a reasonable range determine success to any significant degree.

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The heights are off on some skaters will check when I can. Frank Caroll and every coach knows short skaters are closer to the ice, closer to their center of gravity, not sure how to explain that but I'm sure someone here could help me out as it late and I'm still struggling with power from storm. Everyone knows and has said for years size, shape matter in rotating jumps. Check out the "Frank Caroll discusses Liza thread." He's quite accurate and truthfull. I'm sure this gets discussed here before.

skateluvr said:

The heights are off on some skaters will check when I can. Frank Caroll and every coach knows short skaters are closer to the ice, closer to their center of gravity, not sure how to explain that but I'm sure someone here could help me out as it late and I'm still struggling with power from storm. Everyone knows and has said for years size, shape matter in rotating jumps. Check out the "Frank Caroll discusses Liza thread." He's quite accurate and truthfull. I'm sure this gets discussed here before.

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Of course size and shape matters. Of course if Elizaveta becomes Cynthia's size or grows out like Elene G, that well, it may be the death knell. But guess what size and shape matters in every sport. If Michael Jordan or Lebron James for example were 5-3 would they have been huge basketball stars today? I'd say the answer is nope. But would it be fair to sit there and say Michael, Lebron, Kareem they weren't all as good as they are because they were physically tall? I'd say the answer is again no.

Because there are plenty of people as tall if not taller who are not as good as those people at basketball. Because they didn't put the work into it, didn't drill enough etc. Michael, Lebron, all of them yes were physically gifted but they also honed those physical gifts and deserve full 100% credit for that one.

There are kids in this sport who clearly are getting away with being tiny and muscling in jumps. A lot of people feel the problems in the US right now is so many US coaches in order to get their girls faster they are teaching their students the jumps in the quickest way possible rather than the correct way. Not focusing on basic skating as well. So you have girls in the US who are jumping sure, but its clear that as soon as they get bigger/develop hips those jumps are going to be an issue.

No where for an example is there a more cautionary tale than Caroline Zhang. A very talented kid but it was obvious as clear as day that she'd have a problem with those jumps when she was older. It was a sad case because there was no reason Zhang couldn't have learned how to jump correctly when she was a much younger kid. Couldn't have had those basic skating skills worked on. Now she has to relearn everything when its physically much harder and its sad to see.

The reason people are high on Elizaveta is because she's Zhang's exact opposite. She has very good skating skills for her age, and her jumping technique is just about PERFECT. As long as she doesn't get too big to tall thats going to make things so much easier. The Eurosport commentators talked about young kids taking note about how she uses such little preparation into the jump/instead the momentum goes to the jump itself. If you look at clips of Elizaveta when she was smaller you can see her jumps have gotten bigger/better! as she's gotten older. People think this will continue as she gets more power in her skating. At 12 she actually had toe axels etc, which Mishin fixed. Her great technique didn't get there just out of accident. Her coaches took her aside, insisted on it, and she listened. If Zhang's jumps are the cautionary tale, Tukt's jumps are example of what you do right.

Thats why people take such issue with Frank's words because Frank himself knows full well that there's more to Tuktamisheva than she's just super tiny and can land those jumps. Those are high quality jumps that most 14 year olds, don't have. And she gets all the credit for that.

And if you want an illustration of what I'm saying. Here's a clip of Tukt in 2009 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fFOUOtYrkA Why are her jumps so much better now if being super small is the main thing jump wise...?

In fact one can point out similar things with Miki and Mao. While Mao is much preferable in a lot of ways as a skater. Miki absolutely has the better jumps for the most part (except for the 3axel). Sure Ando staying in shape helps etc. But Ando's coaches at a young child gave her much better jumping technique than Mao's coaches did. Mao's coach Yamada is a great coach (especially with her kids basic skating skills). But she has a tendency to teach her kids some bad habits technique wise (short cuts) and so as they get older, only the most talented the Midori's the Mao's survive puberty. Midori's jumps were so huge she could survive those leg wraps. But the leg wrap certainly not ideal by any stretch of the imagination.

os168 said:

I read today somewhere (post by senorita?) that Liza Tukt. has to travel 10 hours by train by herself for training in St. Petersburg many times a month, now that is incredible dedication for a 14 years old, and knowing that I'd applaud her even more next time she do well.

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I thought it was 10 but actually is 27 hours by train, I had read it in GS article a year ago.

From the whole article I had kept the comments of Mishin Her character is very suitable for figure skating. She is hard-working, she is persistent and she belongs to the rare category of athletes that exactly fulfill the instructions of their coach. That is her remarkable asset

So work ethic like Evan, so maybe she will be OC too one day

skateluvr said:

There is nothing wrong with Michelle's decision at all. I merely point out that America's favorite ( and I mean fans and judges) skater was single minded in her pursuit of Olympic gold. I sincerely doubt she will have some big diplomatic career but she is a driven acheiver who wants a spotlight position.

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Yes, she apparently very much wanted to win the ultimate title. I wonder if she had stayed if she had won in Nagano? On the other hand maybe she would have and tried to become a second Sonja Henie (with 3 Olympic gold medals), but none of that did happen.

seniorita said:

I thought it was 10 but actually is 27 hours by train, I had read it in GS article a year ago.

From the whole article I had kept the comments of Mishin Her character is very suitable for figure skating. She is hard-working, she is persistent and she belongs to the rare category of athletes that exactly fulfill the instructions of their coach. That is her remarkable asset

So work ethic like Evan, so maybe she will be OC too one day

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Thanks for the wonderful interview from the 13 years old Liza. Very mature and great attitude for one so young, honest, down to earthy and dedicated. Actually wise beyond her years just like her skating! Wow 27 hours!! Something tells me she's going to go far

Fav highlights

- Daughter of a School Teacher and a Skier/Soccer Coach seems to have developed the great philosophical aspiration between learning and sportsmanship.

- Seems persistence runs in the family. Wonder how's Liza's young 6 years sister is going to do in skating in the future! All great ladies champion seems to be born one of 2 sisters right?

- She looks up to Yuna and Mao for their elegant and effortless-looking jumps, but want very much be her person. Good on her!

- She acknowledged jumps are her strength, but also has artistic vision to develop high musicality and expressiveness, which one noted right away...very excited by this direction. Hope she won't be another product of letting COP suck the life out of her in the next few years as other senior ladies up their technical game.

- She doesn't like to hear too much about the wunderkind talk [She should thank Frank then? ]

“Well, I don’t regard myself as a wunderkind. I just have very good coaches who are doing everything to bring me to the highest performance level,” she noted. “By the way, we have a few other girls (in Russia), and I’m not really better than they are.”

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I am not sure seeing sporting psychologist can solve what Mirai's 'issues', it seems very American to presume this can solve everything instead of making things worse.

She does need to work on herself and not let others dictate her direction too much. I wonder if part of her problem is lack of self esteem and insecurity letting others domineer her so much she began to loose that sense of self. Why keeping accepting other's expectations in particular Frank's pressure to live up to 'You are the best skater in the world, just go out there and do it?' It is completely false and high billing to live up to.

If she really want it, she will go for it, and no amount of pep talk will do her any good. 2 clean performances at Cup of China? She shouldn't think that way, just 1 at a time, forget about rankings and live up to being the best, US best, Frank's best. She need to skate with joy again and find that competitive spirit, sadly missing from all her competitive performances this year.

if mirai skates the way she is capable of -than yes she can skate 2 clean performances in the gp series.
it is she hasn't done it yet.

Talent and potential aren't enough. Evan Lysacek didn't have as much natural talent and potential as Mirai, but his determination to succeed coupled with a strong work ethic enabled him to maximize his native gifts.

Mirai has to WANT it badly enough to do the work necessary to reach a consistent performance level. From time to time, she has put together two good performances, but overall she doesn't seem to have the dedication to training needed to become a top-level skater.

^^^^
We don't know if it's a training issue or a frame of reference/self esteem issue, though. Some people will tell you that Mirai does run throughs all the time, every session and that she's training "correctly" in terms of doing the right things. Others will tell you she doesn't work the right way. I will say from a combined mental and physical reference, there is at least one thing not working for her. Not sure which it is or if it's a combination of things...

I don't think height and specific body type have that much to do with one's success up to a certain threshold. For women I'd say 5'6" and 130 pounds is where it gets difficult to be at the top, for men, 6' and maybe 180 pounds. Needless to say there aren't successful skaters that are at/above these thresh-holds like for example Kostner is 5'7" and Lysacek is 6'2" (I don't know about their weights though). But I don't think being 5'4" and 115 pounds necessarily puts you at a disadvantage against someone who is 5'1" and 100 pounds, because both are very normal sizes for a female skater. Same goes for the guys, 5'10" 160 is probably the size of someone like Jeremy Abbott, while Michal Brezina is more like 5'7" and 140, both are normal sizes for a skater and both are capable of big tricks. Figure skaters are generally petite to average in height and weight, but once you have gone through puberty, I don't think it really makes a difference where in this range a skater falls, a lot is just dependent on athletic ability. For example, Vanessa Lam looks to be about the same size as Adelina Sotnikova, yet Vanessa's jumps hardly get off the ice and Adelina's are huge. Yuna and Alissa are likely around the same height and weight yet Yuna has huge jumps and Alissa has small ones. Miki Ando is a jumping queen and about the same size as Mirai who has major issues getting her jumps around. A lot depends on conditioning and ability IMO.