Can Mirai Nagasu consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition?

Mao88 · Oct 28, 2011

Can Mirai Nagasu consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition?

Given the history of Mirai in competition, its my considered opinion that she will always have the same problem as Sasha Cohen in that she will probably always struggle to put to 2 clean programs together in the same competition. Nevertheless, I hope that ultimately she proves me wrong. Is it a temperament problem? If so, hopefully she can overcome it in the same way that Alissa Czisny has begun to.

brightphoton · Oct 28, 2011

Awww, poor Mirai. I felt bad for her when Aunt Joyce always made these types of posts ... I think people have very, very high expectations for her since her perfect Olympic SP and FS. She also had a clean National's in 2010 too.

I don't like Alissa's skating at all, so I'm not going to go on at length about that

Mrs. P · Oct 28, 2011

Mao88 said:
Given the history of Mirai in competition, its my considered opinion that she will always have the same problem as Sasha Cohen in that she will probably always struggle to put to 2 clean programs together in the same competition. Nevertheless, I hope that ultimately she proves me wrong. Is it a temperament problem? If so, hopefully she can overcome it in the same way that Alissa Czisny has begun to.

Just curious, let's consider her senior history so far (not including 2008-2009 because quite frankly that was just not a good year.)

2009 Cup of China - 1st in SP, 6 in LP (5th overall)
2009 Skate Canada - 3rd in SP, 3rd in LP (4th overall)
2009 Nationals - 1st in SP, 3rd in LP (2nd overall)
2010 Olympics - 6th in SP, 5th in LP (4th overall)
2010 Worlds - 1st in SP, 11th in LP (7th overall)
2010 Cup of China - 1st in SP, 5th in LP ( 4th overall)
2010 TEB - 2nd in SP, 1st in LP (2nd overall)
2011 Nationals- 1st in SP, 3rd in LP (3rd overall)
2011 4CC - 4th in SP, 3rd in LP (3rd overall)
2011 Nelbelhorn 1st in SP, 1st in LP (1st overall)

So from my view, she did two clean problems under some pressure during the 2010 Nationals, 2010 Olympics and 2010 TEB, 2011 4CC was a come from behind and 2011 Nebelhorn was a low pressure event.

Mao88 · Oct 28, 2011

brightphoton said:
Awww, poor Mirai. I felt bad for her when Aunt Joyce always made these types of posts ... I think people have very, very high expectations for her since her perfect Olympic SP and FS. She also had a clean National's in 2010 too.

I don't like Alissa's skating at all, so I'm not going to go on at length about that

But, will she ever be able to do it consistently? That's the problem. She has done it in the odd competition, but not consistently

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 28, 2011

I don't think she will have the same problems as Sasha. We were all kind of spoiled by Kwan and how consistent she was, and really no one has come anywhere close to her peak level as far as consistently landing all the triples. I wouldn't say that even Yuna, Mao, or Miki consistently put together 2 clean programs in the same competition. So I don't see Mirai, who isn't as strong a jumper as the last three World champs, doing so. However, there is a big difference between that and NEVER having put two clean programs together, which was the case for Sasha. So I think Mirai can skate clean competitions, but not in the way Michelle used to.

dorispulaski · Oct 28, 2011

Mirai already has more competitions with 2 clean skates than Sasha ever had, AFAIR.

Jammers · Oct 29, 2011

Yeah but Sasha landed on the World podium way more often then Mirai has so far. Sasha might make mistakes in her LP to keep her from winning but she usually kept it together enough to stay on the podium. Even in Torino with the two falls she still fought and performed her program brilliantly and landed 5 triples. Mirai has a habit of giving up after one fall or mistake. You do not win a World championship or World medal with that lack of mental toughness.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 29, 2011

Sasha was a great performer and successful competitor but, as the OP stated, she did not put together 2 cleans programs ever. The fact that she could win a silver medal at the Olympics with two falls speaks to her incredible talent. Despite her success, it was not being able to hit clean LPs that prevented her from winning a World or Olympic title. Mirai cannot afford to make as many mistakes and hope to replicate Sasha's results; the field is getting deeper and Sasha was considered one of the best of her generation.

thumbyskates · Oct 29, 2011

I don't have time, but would be curious what some sort of stats might be in delivering a clean short and long in general (not just Mirai) since the development of CPC, especially in recent years. My general thinking has me thinking that clean LPs and SPs in one competition are getting harder and harder to find - not even Patrick Chan pulled that off at Worlds last year (doubling a planned 3-axel in the long). I think this applies to mens and ladies in general.

The demands of CPC with (most) skaters putting equally much effort into their spins, transitions, and footwork elements, leaves them with much less energy to perform the jumps with the consistency they once did.

I think Mirai stands out because she goes from one extreme to the other and the talent is so obvious, we're left with disappointment over and over with her.

Anyone up to pull up some stats on some skaters and consistency CPC vs. 6.0?

Jammers · Oct 29, 2011

Well now the question should be can Mirai skate one clean program now?

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 29, 2011

thumbyskates said:
I don't have time, but would be curious what some sort of stats might be in delivering a clean short and long in general (not just Mirai) since the development of CPC, especially in recent years. My general thinking has me thinking that clean LPs and SPs in one competition are getting harder and harder to find - not even Patrick Chan pulled that off at Worlds last year (doubling a planned 3-axel in the long). I think this applies to mens and ladies in general.

The demands of CPC with (most) skaters putting equally much effort into their spins, transitions, and footwork elements, leaves them with much less energy to perform the jumps with the consistency they once did.

I think Mirai stands out because she goes from one extreme to the other and the talent is so obvious, we're left with disappointment over and over with her.

Anyone up to pull up some stats on some skaters and consistency CPC vs. 6.0?

Clean LPs are definitely hard to come by these days, but I think part of that is that the field is not as deep at the moment with Yuna and Miki out, and Mao struggling. We had Michelle Irina and Sasha, then Yuna and Mao, and now really no one is dominating. I think you are on to something with the demands of all the other elements affecting the jumps. I think we especially see that when skaters like Sasha and Yuna have come back from breaks and not able to achieve their peak form; the fitness level and run-throughs needed are definitely higher than pre-COP programs.

Mathman · Oct 29, 2011

I agree with Thumbyskates and Drivingmissdaisy.

Can Mirai skate two clean performances? No. No one can any more.

OS · Oct 29, 2011

I am curious... just how many ladies and gents were able to put on 2 clean performances back to back during the COP era? Has Mirai ever managed once?

Is there a ranking somewhere we can compare? From what I know Yuna were only able to do it twice in her career including the one time at the Olympics, so that surely must be a tough and rare thing (assuming you still go for the toughest elements like PChan still does)?

burntBREAD · Oct 29, 2011

os168 said:
I am curious... just how many ladies and gents were able to put on 2 clean performances back to back during the COP era? Has Mirai ever managed once?

Is there a ranking somewhere we can compare? From what I know Yuna were only able to do it twice in her career including the one time at the Olympics, so that surely must be a tough and rare thing (assuming you still go for the toughest elements like PChan still does)?

Mirai's Olympics, unless you count the "!" in her SP.
We all know Sasha never did, I'm not sure if Irina with complete content (including 3-3s) did, Mao hasn't, Joannie hasn't (internationally), Miki usually has trouble in the SP...

christinaskater · Oct 29, 2011

I do hope her team hires a Sports psychologist very soon. Skating is a mind game and she needs to get the correct mind set to her performances.

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 30, 2011

I know people have high expectations for Mirai, but am I the only one who thinks Mirai's strong 4th place finish at the Olympics was an aberration rather than a reflection of her true level? (In other words, the Olympics were her Paul Wylie moment). She has charisma but, to me, her fitness level is suspect and her confidence in her jumps is lacking. I think she might be overrated because the skaters in the US have strung together some outstanding results since at least the 80s (Sumners, Thomas, Trenary, Yamaguchi, Harding, Kerrigan, Kwan, Lipinski, Hughes, Cohen) and no skater is filling that void right now.

brightphoton · Oct 30, 2011

It's not like we have a great array of American women to choose from.

Ashley Wagner - had two-footed issues, flutz, UR, gets buried in SP at Nationals
Rachael Flatt - reliable in the past, got worse with age
Caroline Zhang - bendy and cute in the past, got worse with age
Alissa Czisny - tends to fall, UR

unfortunately, Mirai might be one of those girls with a "got worse with age" remark

dorispulaski · Oct 30, 2011

This is true. And we don't give enough credit for 2 clean programs here on the boards when it happens.

On the men's side in the US, both Miner & Dornbush did 2 back to back clean programs last year. Not so much this year, but perhaps by year end.

In juniors, Max Aaron, Joshua Farris & Jason Brown all look promising and have at one time or another done back to back clean programs. Brown not as much this year. Brown needs to get his 3A fully rotated and get a 4T. He has all the lower jumps integrated into COP busyness very nicely, and has coped pretty well with a growth spurt this last year.

I have hopes for Gracie Gold on the ladies' side.

Rachael used to be able to do it, but between growing and injuries and school, not any more.

It is definitely not common to do 2 clean programs any more.

Which is another reason to watch ice dance instead.

Mathman · Oct 30, 2011

dorispulaski said:
It is definitely not common to do 2 clean programs any more.

Which is another reason to watch ice dance instead.

I agree. With sorrow as to the state of singles skating and with anticipation about learning more about ice dance.

Strangely enough, as the scoring of singles skating becomes more opaque, popular television shows like Dancing with the Stars have taught Americans how to tell the difference between a tango and a quickstep.

emma · Oct 30, 2011

dorispulaski said:
This is true. And we don't give enough credit for 2 clean programs here on the boards when it happens.

On the men's side in the US, both Miner & Dornbush did 2 back to back clean programs last year. Not so much this year, but perhaps by year end.

In juniors, Max Aaron, Joshua Farris & Jason Brown all look promising and have at one time or another done back to back clean programs. Brown not as much this year. Brown needs to get his 3A fully rotated and get a 4T. He has all the lower jumps integrated into COP busyness very nicely, and has coped pretty well with a growth spurt this last year.

I have hopes for Gracie Gold on the ladies' side.

Rachael used to be able to do it, but between growing and injuries and school, not any more.

It is definitely not common to do 2 clean programs any more.

Which is another reason to watch ice dance instead.

This is interesting as it reminds me there are more clean ones to look at and remember; and to think about this for every comp! And yes, dance is amazing! But, I do have a question, back in the 6.0 day - I remember clearly some extraordinary skaters like Kwan or Yagudin or Plushenko who did back to back to back to back clean SPs and LPs...but my fuzzy memory seems to tell me that's why they won against solid competitors who "failed" to skate clean when they were in striking distance. I think what I am saying is aren't back to back clean programs relatively rare, period? and yes, perhaps even more so of our current COP skaters including the gold medalists?

(PS didn't Yuna skate back to back clean program in 2010 O's?).

Can Mirai Nagasu consistently put 2 clean programs together in the same competition?

Mao88

brightphoton

Mrs. P

Uno, Dos, twizzle!

Mao88

drivingmissdaisy

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Jammers

drivingmissdaisy

thumbyskates

Jammers

drivingmissdaisy

Mathman

OS

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