Tuktamysheva: The Views of Frank Carroll

drivingmissdaisy · Oct 31, 2011

It's too bad there is underlying bitterness when he makes comments like this, because I generally agree with his opinions. He had criticized Bonaly's ability to skate in 1995 when Kwan started become competitive with the top ladies, and Slutskaya's 3/3 at the 2000 GPF, and was probably right on both occasions. Some of us do think that Elizaveta skates a bit "juniorish" but she skated her best, finished 2nd in the LP and won the competition because she had the strongest SP. This was the right result so it does make his comments look like there is a bit of bitterness there.

kwanatic · Oct 31, 2011

Skate Canada Ladies Review

http://thenakedice.blogspot.com/2011/10/skate-canada-ladies-review.html

In responses to Frank's comments:

I can't say I disagree with him. The reason Liza can rotate so fast is because she's very tiny. Look at the podium picture; she's pint-sized compared to the other girls and it's not unfair to say that her small stature is an advantage because it is. The smaller you are, the faster you rotate. What's wrong about that?

I also agree that Liza lacks maturity but is that a bad thing? Hell, she's 14 years old...what do you expect him to say, she has the refinement and elegance of a 19 or 20 year old? I think her programs are upbeat and fun, and yes, a bit juniorish. There's no meaningful musical interpretation or profound choreography in either of her programs, and yet...she's 14. I don't expect there to be. And I also agree that anything over a 7.00 for her in PCS was an over-mark; I'd agree that Liza was in a mid to high 6s range which is more than excellent for a new senior considering most incoming seniors range in the low to mid 5s.

The main thing I like about Liza is her solid technique and her ability to perform rather than clam up under pressure. I don't think she's extraordinarily fast or that her jumps are particularly huge; her spins range from decent to poor, her lines and extensions leave a lot to be desired...in short, she still has a lot of growing to do but, again, at 14 years old that's to be expected.

People are attacking Frank because he wasn't 100% complimentary to Liza or because people are perceiving his comments as coming from a bad or bitter place. I just think he was being honest. He's seen enough skaters to know the changes that will occur in the next three or four years so he's not completely impressed yet but he does see the potential.

bekalc · Oct 31, 2011

The main thing I like about Liza is her solid technique and her ability to perform rather than clam up under pressure. I don't think she's extraordinarily fast or that her jumps are particularly huge; her spins range from decent to poor, her lines and extensions leave a lot to be desired...in short, she still has a lot of growing to do but, again, at 14 years old that's to be expected.

Tukt's jumps are big for her height. I know another poster who saw her live said they are quite big in terms of height and ice coverage. She's just not hugely tall so they won't be big as for example Kim's. She also uses momentum for her jumps (and needs little preparation) which all speaks good things about her after puberty. She won't be able to rotate as fast when she's bigger sure, but she'll also have greater height on the jumps to compensate.

Spun Silver · Oct 31, 2011

kwanatic said:
People are attacking Frank because he wasn't 100% complimentary to Liza or because people are perceiving his comments as coming from a bad or bitter place. I just think he was being honest. He's seen enough skaters to know the changes that will occur in the next three or four years so he's not completely impressed yet but he does see the potential.

I think folks are also missing his comparison of ET to MK:

Tuktamisheva may turn out to be a marvelous skater, come time, Carroll said. He can remember Kwan being the same way when she first burst upon the scene as a 14-year-old, and “completely lacking the concept of how to be a mature skater, but having what this little girl has,”

Kwan became known as the queen of mature skating as her career evolved.

“So let’s she if she can become a Michelle Kwan,” Carroll said.

OT: That paper could use a proofreader!

Mathman · Oct 31, 2011

^ He should have just said the last part -- wow, she's just like Michelle Kwan at that age! -- and left off the part about how "juniorish" her skating is and how she didn't deserve her marks at Skate Canada.

(In general, I vote to ban the word "juniorish" just on general principles. I just did Google search on "juniorish definition" and receive 0 references from on-line dictionaries. I guess it means something like "novice-like" or "juvenile-y.")

Anyway, Frank Carroll is giving us crotchety old men a bad name. I agree with Buttercup and Olympia. He should pick on someone his own size.

Dragonlady · Oct 31, 2011

His comments have certainly deflected attention from a very poor performance by his skater and maybe that was his intention. In the Spring, Frank was ranting about the unfairness of Rachael Flatt going to Worlds with an injury when Marai could have gone instead and the US would have had 3 spots for Worlds this season. Frank guaranteed she would have done it. Really Frank? How can you be so sure, given her track record?

bekalc · Oct 31, 2011

^ He should have just said the last part -- wow, she's just like Michelle Kwan at that age! -- and left off the part about how "juniorish" her skating is and how she didn't deserve her marks at Skate Canada.

Exactly. And in a lot of ways the comparision Tukt to Kwan or frankly a young Yu-na is actually a good one. While her presentation is hardly bad, she's not a baby ballerina.

Dragonlady said:
His comments have certainly deflected attention from a very poor performance by his skater and maybe that was his intention. In the Spring, Frank was ranting about the unfairness of Rachael Flatt going to Worlds with an injury when Marai could have gone instead and the US would have had 3 spots for Worlds this season. Frank guaranteed she would have done it. Really Frank? How can you be so sure, given her track record?

Exactly. You know if Mishin offered Frank a trade, Elizaveta vs Mirai, Frank would probably take it in a New York Minute. Its like Bobek vs Kwan at this point in 1995. Sure Nicole was the more mature skater and like Mirai she had a wonderful charm on the ice. But Bobek didn't have the work ethic/desire. Kwan had the work ethic, desire, ability to compete and the wonderful basics.

Instead right now Frank's got the Bobek, and Mishin has the Kwan. And Frank can't handle that one. Athough whether Mishin will properly develop her artistically is another thing, but apparently Mishin right now is mainly the jump coach/supervisor. What happened with Evgeny really was a crime. (This being said while Evan may have had transitions he actually kind of performed in a similar way to Evgeny with all the arm flailing :lol

jcoates · Oct 31, 2011

Now none of this should be a surprise. Frank is a notorious curmudgeon. He's like the grumpy uncle every has to listen to complaining about the loud kids on the bus when he comes over for holiday meals.

As for what he said, I am of two minds on this. On the one hand, Frank does have a point about Tuk's more immature presentation being somewhat overscored due to her technical content. I say this not because I think he's coming at this from a pure position, but because his own skaters have also received such benefit at times over the years. He knows it when he sees it. That brings up my other perspective, which is that Frank has certainly benefited from the same things he criticizing in Tuk with his own skaters. He was practically the go to coach for young American female skating prodigies for several decades. He had his share of success and failure with them. Many did flame out due to height, weight, injury, burnout, emotional problems etc. Still because of all that experience, He knows not to get worked up about her yet. He had his own perfectly formed champion with textbook technique who did not quite make it, Tiffany Chin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9pApU53W0 (flawless triple axel as a 14 year old about 30 years ago.)

Spun Silver · Oct 31, 2011

There is an irony since Frank was bragging on his immature Carmen in 2010 when she was doing great. No question he sounds a bit cranky and unsporting in this article, but he also compares Tut to his greatest star. Furthermore - first, Tut has her gold medal and he can't do anything about it. He's not a judge, just a sore-loser coach. Second, reporters and editors are always, always misquoting and misconstruing people and I generally give those quoted the benefit of the doubt. Third, he's one of the eminences grises (grumpy old men) of the sport and his strong opinions are worth hearing. Hopefully he will take his issues with the COP to the right channels. As for him and Mirai... well, God bless them. They need it.

blue dog · Oct 31, 2011

Jcoates--was Chin one of Carroll's students, or Mr. Nicks?

PS- mathman is right; Frank should've stopped at, "She reminds me of Michelle at that age."

doubleflutz · Oct 31, 2011

Wasn't Tiffany's triple axel actually taught to her by John Nicks after she'd moved to him, not by Frank?

Tonichelle · Oct 31, 2011

museksk8r said:
I completely agree, and anyone looking at this from a rational point of view knows this as well. It is only the Mirai ubers who are unfairly finger pointing all the blame toward Frank Carroll and Lori Nichol.

When MK left Frank, he became fair game, before then you couldn't touch him... he scares me (he's a grumpy old man who has mean looking eyes) but I can't blame him if a skater isn't willing to go all out all the time... just having a big named coach who has 'skategod' like status is not going to win you a title.

that being said I think it a little odd that he singles the ladies out when it comes to CoP saying it's too complicated for them. Um, the rules are the same across the board... so it's not complicated (and even good) for Evan but somehow it's "too hard" for the ladies... um, kinda sounds sexist when put at face value...

not a good PR day for Carrol :laugh:

Buttercup · Oct 31, 2011

Tonichelle said:
When MK left Frank, he became fair game, before then you couldn't touch him... he scares me (he's a grumpy old man who has mean looking eyes) but I can't blame him if a skater isn't willing to go all out all the time... just having a big named coach who has 'skategod' like status is not going to win you a title.

I don't know that I'd put the responsibility for this primarily on Mirai. Coaching is obviously not one size fits all, and different skaters will need different approaches. I'm not sure Carroll's tough love style is working for her at this point in her career. He seems to do well with skaters who know what they want, are very driven, and are prepared to do exactly what he says. Not everyone is going to be like that, but it doesn't mean they can't be successful with the right coach. Think of someone like Carolina Kostner, certainly a talented and dedicated athlete, but one whose ideas of how to train diverged from Carroll's. And it was just a spectacular failure. She went back to Huth and has finally become more or less consistent at age 24. Maybe there's hope yet for Mirai? But my point is, Mirai may not be putting in the enough work, but maybe a coach with a different style and approach will be able to get more out of her. If I were in her position, I'd seriously consider it.

that being said I think it a little odd that he singles the ladies out when it comes to CoP saying it's too complicated for them. Um, the rules are the same across the board... so it's not complicated (and even good) for Evan but somehow it's "too hard" for the ladies... um, kinda sounds sexist when put at face value...

Not to mention, skaters are now staying in the competitive ranks until a later age. I've seen some stories in the US media suggesting skating is a sport for girls, and I have to wonder if the journalists who write them are remotely aware of what's actually happening in the sport. The highest-placed teenager at Worlds last season was seventh. Two of the medalists skated as seniors under 6.0, which tells you something about how long they've been competing. And yes, it did sound sexist.

bekalc · Oct 31, 2011

jcoates said:
Now none of this should be a surprise. Frank is a notorious curmudgeon. He's like the grumpy uncle every has to listen to complaining about the loud kids on the bus when he comes over for holiday meals.

As for what he said, I am of two minds on this. On the one hand, Frank does have a point about Tuk's more immature presentation being somewhat overscored due to her technical content. I say this not because I think he's coming at this from a pure position, but because his own skaters have also received such benefit at times over the years. He knows it when he sees it. That brings up my other perspective, which is that Frank has certainly benefited from the same things he criticizing in Tuk with his own skaters. He was practically the go to coach for young American female skating prodigies for several decades. He had his share of success and failure with them. Many did flame out due to height, weight, injury, burnout, emotional problems etc. Still because of all that experience, He knows not to get worked up about her yet. He had his own perfectly formed champion with textbook technique who did not quite make it, Tiffany Chin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GE9pApU53W0 (flawless triple axel as a 14 year old about 30 years ago.)

Didn't Tiffany Chin flame out due to crazy mother issues and other things. Perhaps too Tiffany being annointed the next star didn't help as well. Her fourth place finish and the whole the next Olympic Champ, and then Phil Hersh's "the next Olympic champ" with Mirai had some eeirly similar feelings about it. I actually wonder if part of Mirai's issues is that everyone's telling her she's the next great American hope, the future etc.

I actually think one of the best things going for Elizaveta is the fact she's not the only little jumping bean in Russia. She's not even their most hyped Junior- that would be Adelina (and I think for good reasons Sotnikova is more mature). But for both Adelina and Elizaveta to have each other and Julia others, forces them to work hard I suspect, train hard and improve. They know they aren't irreplaceable or have a sure spot. They aren't guaranteed their powerful nation's support. They will have to deliver. I know both Adelina and Elizaveta's coaches have commented on how good they think the rivilary is for both girls. (I think people fail to see that Tara was probably good for Michelle back in the day too).

In general I''m impressed with Tukt's improvement in general last year. Last year her jumps weren't nearly as consistent. This is a kid who clearly works hard. No when she gets older whether she'll have the same focus is another thing.

Thing is perhaps Tukt/Adelina's arrival will be the kick in the butt Nagasu needs. She can no longer call herself the big young talent everyone's talking about.

museksk8r · Oct 31, 2011

Tonichelle said:
When MK left Frank, he became fair game, before then you couldn't touch him... he scares me (he's a grumpy old man who has mean looking eyes) but I can't blame him if a skater isn't willing to go all out all the time... just having a big named coach who has 'skategod' like status is not going to win you a title.

that being said I think it a little odd that he singles the ladies out when it comes to CoP saying it's too complicated for them. Um, the rules are the same across the board... so it's not complicated (and even good) for Evan but somehow it's "too hard" for the ladies... um, kinda sounds sexist when put at face value...

not a good PR day for Carrol

:agree: Yeah, I can agree with all of that, and when is it ever a good PR day for Frankie?

LeCygne · Oct 31, 2011

It's just unfortunate that Mirai has Cup of China this coming weekend.. She said it herself that she's praying for a miracle to get her through this... Plus she'll have Adelina, Christina Gao, Kanako Murakami, and a trio of young Chinese girls on her tail.. Not to mention Kostner herself. Poor Mirai..

blue dog · Oct 31, 2011

LeCygne said:
It's just unfortunate that Mirai has Cup of China this coming weekend.. She said it herself that she's praying for a miracle to get her through this... Plus she'll have Adelina, Christina Gao, Kanako Murakami, and a trio of young Chinese girls on her tail.. Not to mention Kostner herself. Poor Mirai..

Rather than verbal diarrhea, Frank should focus on how to motivate Mirai for her next event. This might work, "OK, Mirai, you're not gonna make the final. Just relax, enjoy your programs, and use it as a tune-up for US Nationals."

Isn't this the same that happened to her last year? She bombed her first event, then came out like gangbusters in the second?

bekalc · Oct 31, 2011

Buttercup said:
I don't know that I'd put the responsibility for this primarily on Mirai. Coaching is obviously not one size fits all, and different skaters will need different approaches. I'm not sure Carroll's tough love style is working for her at this point in her career. He seems to do well with skaters who know what they want, are very driven, and are prepared to do exactly what he says. Not everyone is going to be like that, but it doesn't mean they can't be successful with the right coach. Think of someone like Carolina Kostner, certainly a talented and dedicated athlete, but one whose ideas of how to train diverged from Carroll's. And it was just a spectacular failure. She went back to Huth and has finally become more or less consistent at age 24. Maybe there's hope yet for Mirai? But my point is, Mirai may not be putting in the enough work, but maybe a coach with a different style and approach will be able to get more out of her. If I were in her position, I'd seriously consider it.
.

In the Carolina Kostner situation from what I understand while perhaps Carolina did not like the runthroughs, reports for the most part have never been that Kostner herself didn't have a strong work ethic. She did become extremely successful under Huth, even if she was not consistent. I think perhaps too maybe the injury and scaling down (has built up confidence) as well as maybe learning about other training methods.

Also another theory I think took is Caroilna reaching a point where she's just skating because she loves it. Carolina mentioned now that shes back with Huth she loves "skating" again. That yeah she wishes she didn't make all the mistakes in big competitions but shes in it cuz she loves it. Perhaps in Caroilna's case her deciding I'm doing what I'm doing and I'm not going to worry about the results so much is whats leading to her new much better results..

I think the issue is here Frank isn't Mirai's first coach, didn't Charlene have some issues with Mirai too? Perhaps absolutely another coach can do a better job with her, but if the issue is someone not wanting to work...Welll...

and Mirai isn't skating like someone who loves to skate right now.

ciocio · Oct 31, 2011

I'm waiting for his comments on Adelina Sotnikova!!!!

dorispulaski · Oct 31, 2011

Just saying, but the person who seems to have the most problems understanding the ins and outs of COP seems to me to be Nobunari Oda...

Tuktamysheva: The Views of Frank Carroll

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