Tuktamysheva: The Views of Frank Carroll | Page 4 | Golden Skate

Tuktamysheva: The Views of Frank Carroll

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
this is my take.
i think because Frank didn't stick up for Michelle at that age, (stating she was too young to win-even though-tara, miria who didn't have pcs /artistic at that age )won had to say something like it was age. otherwise he is looking bad for not sticking up for michelle . He thought she was too young, to win, medal that is why he didn't fight for the medals at the 1995 worlds, or say something at nationals etc. even though the public thought michelle should have most definetely medaled
since michelle didn't win it young -elizaveta.
however at skate canada it was Mirai who skated like a junior and elizaveta tried to skate like a senior.
and or maybe because Mirai isn't producing/pacing herself for nationals , that could be another reason

maybe he is just frustrated the elizaveta could medal her first year up, mirai under him only has 1 medal, mirai isn't skating the way she whould and frank wants an excuse
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Carroll says women’s skating is hampered by the new judging system, which requires them to build up points with countless elements, giving them no time to explore the artistic side of skating, “the long sweeping graceful moves,”

.The programs are crammed with content, and the spins are convoluted, he said.

“The sport has become much more complicated, maybe too complicated for the women,” Carroll said.

1. I'd argue the first part is more true for the men, and Carroll did not hesitate to take advantage of this in his work with Lysacek.

I think it is true for both men and women. If a man takes the first fifteen seconds of his program to line up and deliver a perfect quad, to me that's way better than busy feet into a cockeyed fall.

2. Maybe too complicated for the women? Oh, really? Would that be 23 year old World Champion Miki Ando?

Yes, IMHO.

Her fellow medalist, 24 year old Carolina Kostner?

Yes.

Perhaps the American national champion, the now 24 year old Alissa Czisny?

Yes.

None of these skaters do much in the way of transitions, nor do they hold extended positions in an esthetically pleasing way.
 
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kwanatic

Check out my YT channel, Bare Ice!
Record Breaker
Joined
May 19, 2011
OMG! Why are people taking his comments so seriously?! He didn't say anything that damn near every poster on every board has said: she's good, she's small, she has great jumps, but she needs some work. Is any of that a lie? Did he slam Liza by saying she sucks and will never amount to anything? No, he compared her to his greatest student, Michelle Kwan, and said that she has enormous potential to be great. What the hell is so wrong about that? :confused:

Why are people blowing this out of proportion and calling him bitter and mean for just giving an honest (and actually complimentary despite all the negatives people seem to have drawn out of it) opinion? Like someone said at FSU, those were only the comments that were quoted; he probably said other complimentary things about Liza but the journalist decided to include those quotes.:rolleye:

People need to lighten the hell up...:sheesh:
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
To quote the late John Candy in Cool Runnings- If you're not enough without the gold medal, you'll never be enough with it.

I still think Disney needs to make a sequel based on the Jamacian Dog Musher!
 

fairly4

Medalist
Joined
Oct 28, 2007
you are right. should lighten up
he did say nice things, but as you can see people, including me read things into them that other people may not.


Frank maybe does feel she is too young., but like when mirai skated/won nationals -(she skated like elizaveta-)did she think she skate juniorish.
sometimes you have to wonder why they say it one way for one person/team and not the other.
i just question alot of what they say and try to reason why they say.
elizaveta is young, has to grow up. mirai is an older skater.

that is why you don't compare one skater to the next,
she can be ogm like mirai, it depends on how they skate and handle alot of things between now and than.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
None of these skaters do much in the way of transitions, nor do they hold extended positions in an esthetically pleasing way.
You forgot to add smilies, MM; clearly this was meant as a joke?

Tonichelle, ITA about that sequel! You should pitch it to someone ;)

kwanatic, there was very little in his comments that was complimentary and a lot of criticism of a 14 year old, some of it quite nasty and all of it uncalled for. I'll say it again: Frank should focus on his own skaters and stop with the wuzrobbing and endless complaints. It's poor sportsmanship.
 

Kitt

Final Flight
Joined
Feb 1, 2007
Country
United-States
The same John Nicks that couldn't get Sasha to ever skate a clean SP and LP in the same event?

haha good point. But I have to contrast the way Mr. Nicks greeted Ashley Wagner when she finished LP - "Wonderful" vs. Mr. Carroll greeting Mirai with a semi-sarcastic "your best trick" (spin-messed up). Maybe he thinks humiliation will work on her -- I don't know what will either - she was the US Champ at 14, but she has lost something.
 

doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
OMG! Why are people taking his comments so seriously?! He didn't say anything that damn near every poster on every board has said: she's good, she's small, she has great jumps, but she needs some work. Is any of that a lie?

I think the way he spoke about her jumps, or at least the way those comments were spun, came pretty close to being a lie, yes. He makes it sound like she has great jumps because she is small, tiny, able to rotate, etc, and I think that's very unfair to Elizaveta, because it's simply not true. There are very very many young skaters who are able to pull off 3-3 combos or "triple lutzes" simply because of their physical size, even with shoddy technique. She is not one of them. Those girls can't do real triple lutzes and triple axels with flawless technique. Liza's jumps have actually improved, gotten bigger, more powerful, and with more controlled landings, as she has grown older. There's a marked difference from when she was eleven to now when she's fourteen, which is pretty much the opposite of what would happen if she was just relying on her tiny size and ability to rotate. Maybe those statements don't really reflect all of what Frank said, but if it's accurate, he's being unfair. Frank is an excellent and knowledgeable jump coach, and if those statements really reflect what he said to that reporter, he is intentionally misrepresenting the situation and/or omitting information in a way that puts Liza in a bad light, because there is no way he doesn't know the difference between a junior who jumps like young Mao Asada or Julia Lipnitskaya, and someone with the jump technique Liza does. She deserves a lot more credit than he gave her.

His comments on her presentation, her skating skills, ice coverage were all totally true, and I have no problem with any of those statements.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
Frank Carroll has been around for a long time.He's seen it all.His opinion is going to be asked. He gave his opinion of a very promising young skater. What's good and what needs to improve, as he sees it. ( We do expect to see her develop and mature over the next few years , don't we ?)...I don't think what he said can remotely be seen as trash talking..;)

I don't think anyone could argue that Liza shouldn't have won. But have we seen perfection / fully realized potential from her ? Not yet.

We spend so much time trying to read between the lines in peoples comments. If they're utterly PC , we wonder what they really think. If they say what they really think , some of us get all up in arms if they see less than perfection in our faves.:rolleye:
 

icellist

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 16, 2011
OMG! Why are people taking his comments so seriously?! He didn't say anything that damn near every poster on every board has said: she's good, she's small, she has great jumps, but she needs some work. Is any of that a lie? Did he slam Liza by saying she sucks and will never amount to anything? No, he compared her to his greatest student, Michelle Kwan, and said that she has enormous potential to be great. What the hell is so wrong about that? :confused:

Why are people blowing this out of proportion and calling him bitter and mean for just giving an honest (and actually complimentary despite all the negatives people seem to have drawn out of it) opinion? Like someone said at FSU, those were only the comments that were quoted; he probably said other complimentary things about Liza but the journalist decided to include those quotes.:rolleye:

People need to lighten the hell up...:sheesh:

ITA with you. All I got from reading the article was that Frank thought that her PCS was slightly unjust in the competition, should have been lower in Skate Canada. She is a great jumper but there is work still to be done. Frank never said anything about wuzrobbing, as other people claim Frank was hinting at. Why does everyone think Frank is such a sourpuss? He did say there is a lot of potential in her.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
You forgot to add smilies, MM; clearly this was meant as a joke?

Not a joke, but i guess I didn't make my point very well. I think that in the case of these three skaters the CoP is a hindrance to them and prevents them from skating as well as they could. They win medals, but at a cost in terms of both the technical clarity and the artistic presence that they are capable of.
 

bsfan

On the Ice
Joined
Feb 10, 2011
Frank Carroll has been around for a long time.He's seen it all.His opinion is going to be asked. He gave his opinion of a very promising young skater. What's good and what needs to improve, as he sees it. ( We do expect to see her develop and mature over the next few years , don't we ?)...I don't think what he said can remotely be seen as trash talking..;)

He didn't just gave opinions on what's good /not good. He commented on the PCS of Liza by saying what score range she should have. That is politicking, trying to press down her future scores and giving influence on judges.

He even didn't talk about her good point really by saying her good jumps were due to her smaller size, etc.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
I don’t think that anyone has pointed out the obvious: This morning everyone is talking about what Frank said about ET, instead of asking why Nagasu bombed utterly at Skate Canada. It wasn’t that long ago that Frank was whining to Phil Hersch about how wrong it was that Rachael Flatt didn’t pull out of Worlds and let Mirai go in her place. Frank guaranteed that Mirai would have come home with 3 spots for the US Ladies this season. Absolutely, no question.

Well I think Mirai’s performance this past weekend puts that claim into question. Mirai had a golden opportunity here and she threw it away. I don’t think I’ve ever seen a skater just give up the way she did. But we’re not talking about that. We’re talking about Frank dissing ET.

Nice way to distract everyone from the thorny question of “Why can’t Mirai win?”
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Not a joke, but i guess I didn't make my point very well. I think that in the case of these three skaters the CoP is a hindrance to them and prevents them from skating as well as they could. They win medals, but at a cost in terms of both the technical clarity and the artistic presence that they are capable of.

Alissa wasn't doing all that great before CoP came along, though.
 

Dragonlady

Final Flight
Joined
Aug 23, 2003
None of these skaters [Czisny, Kostner, Ando] do much in the way of transitions, nor do they hold extended positions in an esthetically pleasing way.

None of those three ever had much in the way of transitions, even when they were skating under 6.0. I remember the first time I saw Ando when she was a junior thinking that she'd be OK once she developed some presentation and started doing something besides stroke between her elements. I'm still waiting. Kostner is doing a LOT more than she used to, which isn't saying much. Alyssa is pretty much the same.

Our bookkeeper was commenting to me last week before Skate Canada that the skaters have much stronger skating skills and are better skaters overall since CoP came in and I have to agree with that. I also find the programs far more interesting. Stroke, stroke jump (and fall), stroke, stroke spin (badly), gets old fast, especially when there are 30 or more skaters in the group.
 

gkelly

Record Breaker
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Czisny doesn't do a lot of transitions, but I do think she holds extended positions in an aesthetically pleasing way in her spins and spirals. That's probably her greatest strength.
 

doubleflutz

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 20, 2010
Czisny doesn't do a lot of transitions, but I do think she holds extended positions in an aesthetically pleasing way in her spins and spirals. That's probably her greatest strength.

She held them almost a little too long under the old COP spiral rules! Prior to last season, some of those four-pass L4 spirals were interminable. Alissa's were at least much nicer to look at than all badly-executed Biellmanns. The new rules seem just about perfect to me.
 

colleen o'neill

Medalist
Joined
Nov 3, 2006
bsfan..I still think you're over reacting, a bit. Frank may have some doubts as to how PCS is being awarded under COP , and we know he has lots of company in this. Liza just happened to provide the example. I don't think it was politicking solely in regard to Liza. He's outspoken. So have many coaches been in the past. Mishin..Tarasova..;)
I don't see why one coach's comments should influence the judges more than another's

We know it's generally true that many skaters can have great jumps when they're small, but could lose them ( or struggle with them ) when they grow..so there's nothing outrageous in pointing that out.

People on the boards have pointed out that Liza comes from a family of small people ,so she may not grow too much more..but they're obviously aware of the general danger.

And in a similar vein, Tracy Wilson opined that Liza may not have a problem with her jumps as she matures ..because her jump technique is so pure.:)
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Tonichelle said:
Alissa wasn't doing all that great before CoP came along, though.

No, but I do feel like she is always trying to cram in more stuff instead of preparing for each element and finihing it. Check out her exhibition program, compared to her LP, at Skate America and you can see the difference, especially on the jumps.

Miki Ando puts most of her jumps in the second half of the program for no programmatic reason, but just to pick up an extra ten percent bonus. This leaves the middle of the program with nothng going on at all; she is just marking time until the CoP tells her to start skating again.

Michelle Kwan, when the CoP came in, had to truncate her signature change of edge spiral. Why? She wasn't earning any extra points for those six seconds.

Alexie Yagudin would not be able to do his eye-popping footwork sequence in his Winter short program. It's only a level 1.
 

Tonichelle

Idita-Rock-n-Roll
Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 27, 2003
Alexie Yagudin would not be able to do his eye-popping footwork sequence in his Winter short program. It's only a level 1.

While he at least did footwork, it was always so basic... when the entire cast of SOI can do the same footwork then it's not so eyepopping. I love the program, but I can't say that my eyes popped with Yags' footwork.
 
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