Katarina Witt wonders where the emotion has gone | Golden Skate

Katarina Witt wonders where the emotion has gone

russell30

Final Flight
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
This subject could go on and on comparing the 6.0 system with the new COP. I agree with Katarina's sentiments that it has lost its emotional edge and the programs are not individual. When the new COP came in (like many) we were not understanding of the system and it took say from 2003-2006 to get it mostly right, even to this day it is still being tweaked. But now I think I am for the COP (as I was very much a 6.0 system) I think it is much fairer, the footwork and the spins are much better (than what they were under the 6.0 system( even the music choices are much better with better edits (due to new technology) and the skaters particularly in the mens and Pairs are advancing and taking it forward. The ladies are not too far behind, and YuNa Kim has done so much for her sport and probably the best of all time. AND Virtue and Moir are being compared to Torvill and Dean.

The only thing that still bothers me under the COP is that in singles and pairs skaters winning a title with an error filled free program (with the short holding them up!!) Doesn't make sense if the silver medalist had a blinder LP and even though won the LP still get the silver, I can see why audiences have dropped because people that don't know the sport would not understand why the silver medalist didn't win??

I think there are numerous memorable programs to remember under the system, Lambiel's Poeta, Dai's Eye, YuNa 007 and Virtue & Moir Mahler FD.
 

CoyoteChris

Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 4, 2004
I can see KW's point and she is not the first to say this. Who wouldnt like to see a great spiral held a bit longer? Yes, something was lost but much was gained under the new system. Not knowing anything, I would hope the system could be tweaked to reflect more emotional, artistic programs. Maybe even a third mark, although the judges are overloaded already. I think ice dance has lost the least in the new scoring system....look at D/W's two Olympic programs...if they werent artistic and/or emotional then you are dead. On the other hand, I dont want to see a mens skater go out there at Sochi, skate from quad jump to Quad jump to evavator music, and win the gold.
I agree with Russell's first paragraph, but not the second. It isnt all about the long program....In fact, while I dont want to ever see figures again, I would be very interested in seeing two shorts and one long for seniors.
Maybe one of those shorts could have an emphasis on artisty. Just a thought.
 

Buttercup

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 25, 2008
I can see KW's point and she is not the first to say this. Who wouldnt like to see a great spiral held a bit longer? Yes, something was lost but much was gained under the new system. Not knowing anything, I would hope the system could be tweaked to reflect more emotional, artistic programs. Maybe even a third mark, although the judges are overloaded already. I think ice dance has lost the least in the new scoring system....look at D/W's two Olympic programs...if they werent artistic and/or emotional then you are dead. On the other hand, I dont want to see a mens skater go out there at Sochi, skate from quad jump to Quad jump to evavator music, and win the gold.
I agree with Russell's first paragraph, but not the second. It isnt all about the long program....In fact, while I dont want to ever see figures again, I would be very interested in seeing two shorts and one long for seniors.
Maybe one of those shorts could have an emphasis on artisty. Just a thought.
I don't think I'm dead, and I didn't like either of D/W's Olympic programs, the FD especially. Manic running around with difficult but unattractive lifts - neither emotional nor artistic, from my couch. The OD was nice, but I'd have liked it better for some other team. I have some ideas which ones... :biggrin: I did, however, find both of V/M's programs exceptional, and remain a big fan of F/S's programs from that season as well.

And this is why while I agree with Witt, I don't see what can be done: artistry, emotional connection - those things are so very hard to quantify and very much subjective. In the article, Patrick Chan is among those mentioned by William Thompson as being able to include an emotional component in his skating. But I don't get that at all! This does not make his opinion invalid, it just means that there are no absolutes. I don't think there's any skater who can do that. Kwan? Some people were left unmoved. G/G? They too have some detractors. I do think you can make the free skate freer, or give skaters more freedom to do more spins and fewer jumps or whatever, or take the more technical components out of the PCS (TR/SS - fold them into the other marks and even into the tech score, where transitions already affect GOEs). But barring a return to 6.0, which has its own set of problems, there's only so much you can do.

In creativity research there are procedures to evaluate how creative something is (and skating performances can be viewed as creative products). But CoP judging isn't it - actually, what's used in this sort of research can't be replicated in an event that demands real-time results. So we will have to find the best imperfect system for judging. I don't think skating's there yet, but I hope things will get closer to that standard in the future.
 

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
Witt said, "Skaters are so busy each second of the program trying to chalk up technical points". Indeed, I have seen many programs skated at the same, albeit difficult, level without good phrasing to reflect the highs and lows of the music. "The entire program is a difficult footwork section" should not be a praise when the music does not call for it.
 

gmyers

Record Breaker
Joined
Mar 6, 2010
Exactly-busyness for the sake of busyness to get the points is not good. There can be good dramatic pauses that go with music and non -skating can be good choreo. I don't want to hear all good choreo involves movement and skating because with Witt some of her best choreo involved her lying on the ice!!! Movemenet is not all good and not all non-skating is bad.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Although I do agree with the main thrust of Katarina Witt's argument, I think the ISU is slowly (and hopefully surely) making adjustments to address these concerns. The move to include a non-levelled choreographic step sequence, for instance, was a great idea and gave the skaters/choreographers a bit more leeway in the creativity department.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Exactly-busyness for the sake of busyness to get the points is not good. There can be good dramatic pauses that go with music and non -skating can be good choreo. I don't want to hear all good choreo involves movement and skating because with Witt some of her best choreo involved her lying on the ice!!! Movemenet is not all good and not all non-skating is bad.

OTOH, movement is not all bad and not all non-skating is good. Takahashi and Chan, for example, have slower movements and meaningful pauses in their programs whereas Amodio and Plushenko have pauses to take breaths or solicit applause. There are judgments on different pauses and rthyms of the programs. Non stop movements are not a COP requirement. Lesser skaters jams in poorly done elements or busy footwork but they don't get rewarded as the best skaters who do them well. Marks reflect such differences in qualities. Then people complain about PCS biases. Everything gets blamed on the scoring system, which is demanding and thus shows up the bad from the good. Look at the winning LPs from last two Worlds from Takahashi and Chan to see what the best can do under the current system. You can't just pick the best and memorable from an earlier era to compare with the general and the poor examples from the present.
 

miki88

Medalist
Joined
Dec 28, 2009
I don't disagree with what she said but I don't know how seriously we can take her argument if the last event she actually watched was the Olympics. It seems Ms. Witt is one of the skating fans who only watches every 4 years. :p
 

Serious Business

Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 7, 2011
I don't disagree with what she said but I don't know how seriously we can take her argument if the last event she actually watched was the Olympics. It seems Ms. Witt is one of the skating fans who only watches every 4 years. :p

The article says that it was the last competition Witt saw in minute detail. She was possibly a commentator on the scene for the event. It doesn't mean she hasn't attended other skating competitions or watched them on YouTube.

The emotion/performance problem is very easy to fix, actually. Right now, we have this mindset in judges of linking together the different scores in the program components. And skating skills seem to be the score that decides the rest in PCS. Judges need to be educated/reminded/beaten with regards to delinking those scores. It is perfectly possible for a skater to have mediocre skating skills but still be a master at interpretation and performance. And vice versa. Once skaters see that performance, emoting and musicality will actually affect their scores, they and their teams will scramble to up their artistry. Skaters are in it to win. Dangle points over the area you want skaters to improve in, and they'll come running.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
The only thing that still bothers me under the COP is that in singles and pairs skaters winning a title with an error filled free program (with the short holding them up!!) Doesn't make sense if the silver medalist had a blinder LP and even though won the LP still get the silver, I can see why audiences have dropped because people that don't know the sport would not understand why the silver medalist didn't win??

Well, you will see this happens often if you watch lots of soccer games: a team dominates the game most of the time but fails to score, while the other team strikes back only once and goooooooal! Hey, that's the beauty of sports! Playing by the rules, even the underdogs have a chance to win.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
The emotion/performance problem is very easy to fix, actually. Right now, we have this mindset in judges of linking together the different scores in the program components. And skating skills seem to be the score that decides the rest in PCS. Judges need to be educated/reminded/beaten with regards to delinking those scores. It is perfectly possible for a skater to have mediocre skating skills but still be a master at interpretation and performance. And vice versa. Once skaters see that performance, emoting and musicality will actually affect their scores, they and their teams will scramble to up their artistry. Skaters are in it to win. Dangle points over the area you want skaters to improve in, and they'll come running.

The thing is, only moving one's arms with the music is not considered good interpretation. The skater has to move his whole body, the feet particularly, to get good IN scores. Only a skater with good skating skills can do that.
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
Well, you will see this happens often if you watch lots of soccer games: a team dominates the game most of the time but fails to score, while the other team strikes back only once and goooooooal! Hey, that's the beauty of sports! Playing by the rules, even the underdogs have a chance to win.

And that was how this happened:

http://youtu.be/Fm9ar7Eau88
 

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 16, 2006
It happened under the 6.0 system. Now that the rules are more explicit, the audience can understand better why the winner is a winner. Don't you agree?

Not really. Now you have more cases of winners who either didn't win EITHER program, or won the short and lost the long. Because people can build up a big lead in the SP, it's almost like when people used to build up lead during figures. It's easier to come from behind nowadays if the judges don't give such high marks to the first place winner. However, if the first place winner in the short are basically given high marks that no one can catch, it's almost like when Beatrix Schuba beat Janet Lynn.
 

silverpond

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Witt said, "Skaters are so busy each second of the program trying to chalk up technical points". Indeed, I have seen many programs skated at the same, albeit difficult, level without good phrasing to reflect the highs and lows of the music. "The entire program is a difficult footwork section" should not be a praise when the music does not call for it.

I agree. I would love to see more credit being given for gorgeous spirals, laybacks, and other non-jumping aspects of the programs. The COP has resulted in most competitive programs being set up to emass the most points as possible - just throw as many elements in as possible - and far less emphasis on musical expression.

As a point of example, Plushenko's long programs are jammed-packed with jumping passes....but WHERE is the artistry??? How can a program that has little, if any, connection to the music receive high presentation marks? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Again, just my two cents, ladies and gentlemen.
 

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
As a point of example, Plushenko's long programs are jammed-packed with jumping passes....but WHERE is the artistry??? How can a program that has little, if any, connection to the music receive high presentation marks? Just doesn't make any sense to me.

Plushenko's long programs have the same amount of jumping passes as everyone else's long programs.....

But I agree with your fundamental point. It always amused me when certain skaters would skate virtually the same programs set to different pieces of music (with oh, I don't know, different opening and ending poses and a few new flourishes here and there) every year and yet rack up those CH and IN points.
 

silverpond

On the Ice
Joined
Jun 18, 2011
Plushenko's long programs have the same amount of jumping passes as everyone else's long programs.....

But I agree with your fundamental point. It always amused me when certain skaters would skate virtually the same programs set to different pieces of music (with oh, I don't know, different opening and ending poses and a few new flourishes here and there) every year and yet rack up those CH and IN points.

Not to be uncharitable, but one of Dick Button's comments on Plushenko's programs has been, "Where was the program?"
 
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