Carolina Kostner: A wake up call to other skaters to focus more on artistry?

Art&Sport · Nov 5, 2011

Why call it a "wake up call from Kostner" to other skaters. Please ... It should be a "wake-up call" to Kostner to firm up her messy little mistakes, and to the judges to stop holding her up. As much as I sometimes enjoy watching Carolina, she is not the one to credit for "artistry" being important in the ladies' field. She has some lovely programs this season, and she had some really nice programs last season. However, it is Alissa Czisny's gorgeous "artistry" and beautiful programs that have been the beacon and example that everyone else in the ladies' field has been inspired by. It is Alissa whom her peers have been attempting to copy the past two seasons, including Carolina. JMHO.

I don't think Carolina should be the one being "set-up" for coronation at GP Final and Worlds. When it comes to artistry, Carolina has nothing on Alissa Czisny.

LeCygne · Nov 5, 2011

I think it's great Carolina is doing so well right now, regardless of her jump content. I'm just wondering why it's now considered a bad thing to have great jumps and to benefit from them. Jumps are arguably the easiest way to up your score because they're worth so much points-wise, compared to other elements and PCS. If you have great jumps, you get a bit of a break on the other elements. If not, you've got to have great skating skills or spins. These are just two different ways to win, and one's not better than the other. After all, figure skating is a sport. A lovely, artistic one, but still a sport. So why are people (Frank Carroll) criticizing someone like Liza Tuktamisheva who has great jumps and great technique in addition to a wonderful performing personality? And I'm not just talking about Frank and Liza but what they represent in the skating world.

skfan · Nov 5, 2011

I really like Carolina's programs this season. Even though I'm rooting for Mao to win worlds, I'm rooting for Carolina to skate the Mozart long perfectly at least once this season. By that I don't mean just perfect jumps-- the little steps could be in time with the music, the spins and jumps shouldn't finish late so that the choreography lags behind the music... Does that 3-sal need to be moved? It always feels like there's not enough time after that jump before the music's tempo picks up. And she could express spontaneity and joy in the fast tempo section (SKAM) rather than tightness and hesitation (CoChina).

One other thing-- can someone with better eyes tell me why Carolina's spins were level 4 this week but only level 1 last week in the long program? Their centering, speed, etc don't seem all that much better than the last time around. I thought this skate was not as good as SKAM, yet she scored higher. What does this different panel see that the SKAM panel didn't (aside from the de-facto crowned 2012 US Champion in the line-up)?

Art&Sport said:
Why call it a "wake up call from Kostner" to other skaters. Please ... It should be a "wake-up call" to Kostner to firm up her messy little mistakes, and to the judges to stop holding her up. As much as I sometimes enjoy watching Carolina, she is not the one to credit for "artistry" being important in the ladies' field. She has some lovely programs this season, and she had some really nice programs last season. However, it is Alissa Czisny's gorgeous "artistry" and beautiful programs that have been the beacon and example that everyone else in the ladies' field has been inspired by. It is Alissa whom her peers have been attempting to copy the past two seasons, including Carolina. JMHO.

I don't think Carolina should be the one being "set-up" for coronation at GP Final and Worlds. When it comes to artistry, Carolina has nothing on Alissa Czisny.

LOL if anything last week's SKAM proved who's being 'set up'. if you want to crown her... i feel a dennis green quote coming on.

How in the world is Carolina emulating Alissa C.? Tepid and empty programs, skated like a beauty queen promenading until it's time to stalk one's jumps--that's the standard bearer now? If anything AC is attempting with all her might to copy past beauty queens like Peggy Fleming, Jill Trenary and Caryn Kadavy. Kostner's improved presentation is owed to the Frank Carroll season, when she was told to slow the heck down and wait for the music instead of racing through it. Kostner has her faults, and even on her best day I do not mistake her for a Mao or a YNK, but they are a different lineage of faults than the equally appallingly held-up Alissa C.

museksk8r · Nov 5, 2011

Caro has it all, IMO. She's my favorite to win Worlds as she has the best programs of anyone this season I think. I really hope she is at peace when it all counts and can deliver the gloriously beautiful performances that she is capable of! :love:

burntBREAD · Nov 5, 2011

I don't think either of Carolina's programs are similar to Alissa's last year. Especially her quirky SP. You think that Shostakovich trio is similar to "Romance" or "Winter into Spring"? I don't think so. And her LP, for me, is very classic.

Mirunna · Nov 6, 2011

I don't care is she wins or not to be honest. Just watching her skate with such freedom is a joy. She in one of the few ladies who can capture my attention and make me watch her for hours even without any jumps. The way she feels the music and hits all the accents makes her special. This season she took it to an other level because before I was always watching her and expected to see mistakes. Now she is so calm, I can watch her relaxed and enjoy her. I can only dream to see her a world champion one day, and if she hits the 3F-3T in the Lp, she has all the chances to do it this year

Violet Bliss · Nov 6, 2011

The biggest advantage Kostner has over Czisny, Nagasu, Flatt, and all other American Ladies is the luxury of learning, improving, and maturing without the constant analysizing, comparing, dismissals, and demands for proof of worthiness. American girls face tremendous pressures for being in a deep national field starving for a breakout star. They are often over hyped or written off before they are even 18 whereas many Ladies champions grow to be their best and win in their 20's with inevitable good and bad times along the way.

bekalc · Nov 6, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
The biggest advantage Kostner has over Czisny, Nagasu, Flatt, and all other American Ladies is the luxury of learning, improving, and maturing without the constant analysizing, comparing, dismissals, and demands for proof of worthiness. American girls face tremendous pressures for being in a deep national field starving for a breakout star. They are often over hyped or written off before they are even 18 whereas many Ladies champions grow to be their best and win in their 20's with inevitable good and bad times along the way.

I remember it being reported that Carolina got huge criticisms in Italy for her Olympic skate in Vancover.

Violet Bliss · Nov 6, 2011

^^^Every contending skater gets attention during the Olympics. But the general media move on to other targets and it's the federations and fans that support or criticize the skaters on the ongoing basis. As I've said, good times and bad times are inevitable but Kostner does not habitually face elimination and replacement of her berth to represent Italy in international competitions.

jiggs · Nov 6, 2011

bekalc said:
I remember it being reported that Carolina got huge criticisms in Italy for her Olympic skate in Vancover.

Yes, it was pretty insane. The whole of Italy expected her to win a medal and when she faltered, the media went crazy on her. Some of the comments made about her were so so bad. I don't know how she managed to get through this period in her career. I would have given up and hidden in a cave or something. That's why I think her free skate at the 2010 Worlds in Torino was one of her most memorable ones. Not necessarily skatingwise, because it wasn't perfect. But mentally - to come back like that a month later after such a disasterous skate in Vancouver, the entire country bashing you... and then skating like this in your very own country was one of the most impressive moments IMO.

And I am so glad she decided to stay. Last year and this year, she seems to have found her inner peace and I as a friend and fan am incredibly proud of her.

burntBREAD · Nov 6, 2011

The pressure that the American ladies and Kostner have are different, while the American ladies are pressured to quickly step up and become the next Michelle Kwan, Kostner is essentially the only great lady skater from Italy, and expectations are sky-high and constant.

bekalc · Nov 6, 2011

SkateFiguring said:
^^^Every contending skater gets attention during the Olympics. But the general media move on to other targets and it's the federations and fans that support or criticize the skaters on the ongoing basis. As I've said, good times and bad times are inevitable but Kostner does not habitually face elimination and replacement of her berth to represent Italy in international competitions.

But sometimes having other people in competition with you can first of all teach you how to compete, and fight for your place. Learning how to compete at a young age isn't a bad thing. Carolina was never a great competitor but she got through in Italy because she was pretty much "it." And so because she's hugely talented there came tons of expectations but Kostner was never the best competitor. The expectations on her was never because she had shown an ability to really compete well. Whereas Michelle Kwan and Tara Lipinski had shown the ability to not only land jumps but compete well at young ages. The talent in the US, and the constant competition taught them how to do this.

IF Kostner had to compete against other girls, she would have had to learn how to compete at a much younger age, and perhaps she would/wouldn't have made it through. But she also wouldn't have been expected to medal/win when it was clear competition spirit wise she wasn't there.

I know that Adelina and Tuktamysheva's coaches have both said that think Adelina and Elizaveta having each other is a very good thing for them.

And seriously if you can't handle getting through in your own country, you'll have difficulty medaling on the world stage.

Violet Bliss · Nov 6, 2011

bekalc said:
And seriously if you can't handle getting through in your own country, you'll have difficulty medaling on the world stage.

Kim, Kostner, Rochette, Lu Chen, Ito ...............

OS · Nov 6, 2011

I find the thread title deep ironic. Just because she won 2 competitions this season with safe Eurocentric programs, she is already the epitome of artistry (?!) Since when did this happen?

Carolina represent the European ladies and and with it powerful Eurocentric federations, including the organisation of ISU, and she has great popularity from the Russian fans, who generally prefer classical programs with European flavours and classic forms and aesthetics.

I wonder if her success this year were due to a lack of pressure from the likes of Yuna, Mao, Miki, Joannie absent from competing. Mao will be back at worlds, let's see how she does then, or will she pull an Miki Ando because she win everything this year? That way she is going will certainly will bring her momentum. Out of all the competitors competing today, she is the most experienced and seasoned skater, therefore by default, she should have the highest % chances of winning.

Without her 'strong peers' this year, she know she is the top lady and therefore all she has to do is stay on her feet and she fulfills her role nicely. This is infact her strategy all along. In otherwords, there are literally no pressure this year and she is playing safe sticking with what she is good at.

In a year where ladies programs (and standards) has been poor (discount the Russian babies debut) and hers is just head above water, I certainly don't consider she is now the the epitome of artistry. In fact no one is. There're more exciting things going on at Mens including risk taking and originality which are many of the integral components of artistry. Just because an European performing to the classic works by an old European master, and held up by an Eurocentric ISU organisation as she has been doing all her career, and now without her peers, she naturally rule, how does this make her a great artist instead just a product of her circumstance?

A great skater? May be! Artistic skater? Not at all. Don't get me wrong, she does try, it is the right time for her (+ anyone's career when they had as long as her career), but hardly.

Buttercup · Nov 6, 2011

burntBREAD said:
The pressure that the American ladies and Kostner have are different, while the American ladies are pressured to quickly step up and become the next Michelle Kwan, Kostner is essentially the only great lady skater from Italy, and expectations are sky-high and constant.

Yes - in case some have forgotten, Kostner was involved in promoting the 2006 Olympics, and was chosen to be the Italian flagbearer - the Olympics were around the time of her 19th birthday, and her biggest achievement when she was chosen as flagbearer was a bronze at Worlds. So a huge honor for sure, buts lots of attention and pressure to go along with it. Small wonder it got to her. I don't think something like that would have happened to a young American skater (or a Canadian one; Clara Hughes was such a good choice!).

Violet Bliss · Nov 6, 2011

Kostner could not have achieved as much as she has without mental strength and ability to handle pressures. My point is that skaters should be given time and chances to develop and mature at their own pace instead of being written off young or expected to have a smooth accendence without some mishaps or underperformances along the way. Great talents deserve support and chances to presevere.

cjsk8fan · Nov 6, 2011

Rochette is a perfect example of someone who improved as she grew older. She could still be competitive if she chose to compete.

Mirunna · Nov 6, 2011

os168 said:
I find the thread title deep ironic. Just because she won 2 competitions this season with safe Eurocentric programs, she is already the epitome of artistry (?!) Since when did this happen?

People find her artistic because she is able to interpret all kinds of music,she feels the music and performs well. She was always talented but a head-case who used to bomb, and bomb hard. At her best, she had a good competition, then a bad one. But suddenly, she wasn't off the podium since 2010 Worlds, which shows she became a consistent skater, even with lower technical content. Her Skating Skills and command on the ice is second to none and her programs, when the jumps are landed, are the currently the best out there. Maybe the world "artistry" used in the title is not the best choice, I would replace it with "a wake up call for the skaters listen to the music they are skating to".

burntBREAD · Nov 6, 2011

I don't think Carolina's SP this year (I know, I keep talking about it, but I love it!) is typical-anything, much less Euro-skater. There's nothing pretty-princessy about it, it's not to awful techno music -- it's a fun, quirky, interesting program right down to the costume and music IMO. :thumbsup:

doubleflutz · Nov 6, 2011

burntBREAD said:
I don't think Carolina's SP this year (I know, I keep talking about it, but I love it!) is typical-anything, much less Euro-skater. There's nothing pretty-princessy about it, it's not to awful techno music -- it's a fun, quirky, interesting program right down to the costume and music IMO. :thumbsup:

I agree with all of this, and to me the only thing really "European" about Carolina is the technique/style of her skating skills: very very fast, with a lot of flow, but not necessarily the deepest edges, most precise edge control, or using the edges themselves to generate the momentum, but rather a controlled lightness that allows her to carry the speed through the edges. Other than that, she's not really balletic at all, and her carriage is okay but not what I would think of as "European". Her lines are often somewhat weak and mostly just a side-effect of her body type, often her knees are not straight, legs not fully extended or turned out properly from the hip, toes not always pointed, not the best use of the head, shoulders sometimes slumpy, etc. In terms of style, I think Alissa, Mao, and especially Lubov Iluischechkina are more "European" than Caro, although Alissa's skating skills are definitely American.

Carolina Kostner: A wake up call to other skaters to focus more on artistry?

Art&Sport

LeCygne

skfan

museksk8r

burntBREAD

Mirunna

Violet Bliss

bekalc

Violet Bliss

jiggs

burntBREAD

bekalc

Violet Bliss

OS

Sedated by Modonium

Buttercup

Violet Bliss

cjsk8fan

Mirunna

burntBREAD

doubleflutz

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