Mao needs victory at NHK Trophy to regain confidence

wallylutz said:

It is confusing indeed. On one end, supposedly knowledgeable Mao followers are telling us that her focus is not on the 3A but on other areas such as rebuilding the technique on her other jumps. If that's true, how come the 3Lz was absent from the SP? I mean, if the focus is to eliminate the flutzing, which would be an important goal, you'd think she would at least show that in the SP. Instead, she went and attempted a jump that is said to be not her focus and failed? You see why things don't add up?

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She will try the 3Lz in the Lp, maybe she is not confident enough to put that jump in both programs. She fixed her 3F technique, improved her Skating Skills, speed, spins so she didn't focus as much on the 3A. This jump was always problematic for her in the beginning of the season but by nationals it gets better. Every year was the same. It's a hard jump to master and she probably risks injury to practice it steadily the whole year. The fact that she went for the 3A today was entirely her choice, she went against coach Sato's advice to go for the 2A and it was a bad decision, and she is paying for it.I don't understand why you are unable to see the improvements she made. In february 2011(at 4 continents) she landed 3A, 3F, 3lz(e), 3S and 3L( and also tried 2A-3T combo). Worlds was a different story and she is not the only one who under-performed because she wasn't in peak condition.
She has the same layout now,so she has almost all the triple jumps(it remains to be seen if she corrected her flutz and she needs time to get the 3A consistent). So where is the problem?

pangtongfan said:

Mao won the Olympic Silver because of her triple axels. She wouldnt have won it otherwise as Joannie had caught or surpassed her in all other areas of jumping and overall performance by then. They also helped her to her second World title in 2010. She is wise to continue with the triple axels as they clearly benefit her when she skates well. The key is for her to get consistency on her other jumps back, and that is why she has redone her technique, sacrificing a whole season already (last season and maybe more) in a determined effort to do so to better her Sochi chances. Her choreography is also much better now that she is no longer working with Tarasova who gave her programs that didnt suit her strengths.

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Tarasova choreographed her SP

Mirunna said:

She will try the 3Lz in the Lp, maybe she is not confident enough to put that jump in both programs. She fixed her 3F technique, improved her Skating Skills, speed, spins so she didn't focus as much on the 3A. This jump was always problematic for her in the beginning of the season but by nationals it gets better. Every year was the same. It's a hard jump to master and she probably risks injury to practice it steadily the whole year. The fact that she went for the 3A today was entirely her choice, she went against coach Sato's advice to go for the 2A and it was a bad decision, and she is paying for it.I don't understand why you are unable to see the improvements she made.

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I didn't comment on the other aspects of her skating doesn't mean I refuse to acknowledge her improvements.

In february 2011(at 4 continents) she landed 3A, 3F, 3lz(e), 3S and 3L( and also tried 2A-3T combo). Worlds was a different story and she is not the only one who under-performed because she wasn't in peak condition.
She has the same layout now,so she has almost all the triple jumps(it remains to be seen if she corrected her flutz and she needs time to get the 3A consistent). So where is the problem?

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Problem is the strategy. There is a lot of uncertainties and if in all of the above. Skating is a risky sport and the successful ones are often the best at managing risk and minimizing unforeseen circumstances. This was a key part of Yu Na Kim's success as a skater - maximizing point earning potential yet minimizing risk, e.g. doing three 2A = one 3A. My concern about her 3A is at the center of her strategy because it is the 真央 of her TES offensive capabilities. Her jumping is buit and centered on that risky yet shaky element, which means if she fails on that jump, the program crumbles. From a risk management standpoint, relying on such high risk element with no possibility of back up or alternative in case of failure is not to be recommended. Now, many people seemed to think she really has her Triple Axel, it's just bad luck that she keeps making mistakes on the jump. My position is that she never had a Triple Axel to begin with, just like she never owned a Triple Lutz. This difference is critical. Patrick Chan too has a shaky Triple Axel. But Chan's problem with the 3A is not technical - he has the jump - you don't need replay to know his jump is fully rotated and then some. If Mao's trouble with 3A is similar to Chan's, then it makes sense for her to keep trying it in competition but that's not the case here. Even then, notice how Chan's coaching team manages the risk that comes with a shaky yet important jump by not making it the center of his skating? It all come back to the basic of risk management in figure skating. It's not about who has the biggest trick but who is smartest about it.

There are times when Mao masters the jump and is able to land them consistently(she landed 2 3A in the LP, for example, in 2008 NHK trophy, 2008-2009 GPF, 2008-2009 Nationals and landed one at 2009 4Continents and one at 2009 worlds.I know not all of them got ratified, but under the current rules, for some of them she would get partial credit because non of those I mentioned were 3A<<, most likely some were 3A and some were clean. Next season, starting with Nationals, she landed at least one clean 3A in the rest of the competition she entered, and in 2 of them - 4Continents and Olympic- got full credit for two. Only last season she had bigger problem with this jump but by nationals it became consistent). So the does HAVE the jump but only when she dedicates it enough time to get consistent. Right now, no, she is unable to land it and it was foolish to do it, but she is stubborn. Coach Sato know it and he advised her against it. I hope tomorrow she concentrates more on what she can do at the moment.
And btw, Mao is the lady skater who landed the most ratified 3A in competitions. So if she never mastered this jump, I don't know who did

Do you guys know if she can still do her 3F-3Lo? Maybe she could re-insert that into her SP and replace the 3A with 2A while she is working on the other technical areas of her skating. Even if it's 3F-3Lo<, it may be worth a shot.

(the Golden Skate article said that Coach Sato suggested that Mao try 2A, but ultimately left it up to her to decide.)

prettykeys said:

Do you guys know if she can still do her 3F-3Lo? Maybe she could re-insert that into her SP and replace the 3A with 2A while she is working on the other technical areas of her skating. Even if it's 3F-3Lo<, it may be worth a shot.

(the Golden Skate article said that Coach Sato suggested that Mao try 2A, but ultimately left it up to her to decide.)

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That seems to be another combo that would require a huge time investment to get back, as she hasn't attempted it in competition the last few years. It seems to me her focus isn't on winning so much as improving, but at some point she has to evaluate her situation and acknowledge that she isn't going to be able to replicate her jump content from 2008. She doesn't need 2 3As, a 3Z and a 3/3 to win, and she should be earning terrific PCS once she skates clean programs. She just needs to master whatever jumps she decides to put in and let the others go so she can start winning again.

I know I'm going to be unpopular with what I now write, but I don't give a s***, I care too much about Mao and her skating to be PC.

What's going on!?! :confused2:

I mean that in the most sincere way, and I'm not just talking about her skeletal emaciated physique, which she cleverly tried to hide in the costume she wore, but it was obvious (what I saw of the upper part of her chest, one can see her bones sticking out, and the camera adds 10 lbs, UNBELIEVEABLE!).

And it's not just that, I'm also talking about her jumps, after having re-watched Mao's SP. Using the slo-mo I noticed that her 3L/2T was underrotated on both jumps by at least 140, whereas the cut off limit is 90 to receive full credit, and if 180 or more no credit whatsoever, as it should be. However, her 3R looked like it just made it at 90 short of rotation.

She needs muscle to do the jumps, and muscle is gained by adding weight, which she is losing. My gosh she's never had a weight issue ever, so why start losing even more weight now, unbelieveable!

Except for being able to spin on a dime, I don't see any improvement with Mao's time spent with Mr. Sato, rather I see regression. And I fear if she spends any more time with him she'll be doing unreparable damage to her body. Why you ask? Here I point to Lucinda Ruh's new book FROZEN TEARDROP, in which she alludes to abuse she received while under Mr. Sato's care for 8 years (he became her coach when she was 7 yrs. old). Read for yourself, here are 4 excerpts from an interview with Lucinda about her new book:

http://www.examiner.com/figure-skat...sation-with-lucinda-ruh-part-1-painter-on-ice

I wish she would've just stayed with her old coach from when she was winning and doing FAB. Who cares if she will always come in 2nd to Yuna Kim when they both skate clean. Nobody, and I mean nobody can beat Yuna Kim when she's on and clean, unless they can outjump her and match her perfect technique jump for jump, fully rotated, huge, and on! The new Russian wonderbabies may have a chance, as Elizaveta's technique is just as sound & perfect as Yuna Kim's, and Adelina matches Yuna Kim jump for jump, including fully rotated 3/3 combos.

But enough of those other skaters, I'm talking about Mao. You won the silver medal with two courageous fabulous gutsy routines! And as God is my witness, it is y-o-u-r routines I remember more than all else, still gives me shivers. I don't want to see you kill yourself to try to match Yuna Kim's unbelieveable score, or change your old reliable technique just to try to emulate Yuna, et al. It breaks my heart. Why can't you just be satisfied with what you do well, and work on that. You've always been special, you don't need an Olympic Gold Medal to validate yourself or your skating. You've already set so many records, and your name is even in the Guiness Book of World Records, you will be remembered, especially by those that love you & your skating.

Why not go back to your old coaches, and just skate the way you used to skate, with freedom and joy to boot!

Btw, don't get me wrong, I always want to see you advance in one way or another, be it jumps, spins, or expression. But not at the cost of your health, or losing your jumps in the process, or losing your joy/love of skating. Jmho.

Nadine, I skimmed that whole interview with Ruh and didn't see her link Mr Sato to abuse. I saw abuse (unexplained), I saw that the Chinese coach was better for her than Sato, but I didn't see Sato and abuse in the same sentence. Can you clarify?

Apart from that, I share your concerns about Mao. The improvements in her skating that others are describing aren't visible to me. I see a skater who is vanishingly thin and lacks the joy that marked her in her earlier years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TuGYFM_ytFE
I too am puzzled about how she can find the power to jump in this condition. Is she being eaten alive by her fans' mania for the triple axel? In retrospect her skate to Judy Garland looks like an omen.

I could see it being frustrating for Mao who grew up with the superior head-to-head against Yuna and then all of a sudden being surpassed by her. It's a bit of bad luck that under the new system the base value of a 3A-2T was lower than that of a 3Z-3T, when the 3A combo is more difficult. This really hurt her in Vancouver. (Of course Mao had an opportunity to adapt and do a 3/3 also but did not (or could not).) I agree that the coaching changes have complicated matters for her and it's a shame because the Mao of 2008 would have challenged Yuna, even in Vancouver. Now she struggles to even medal in any competition and it is very sad to see.

Nadine, but didn't you notice how much her speed and flow improved since last year? She is skating much faster and so smooth. That's one area where she regressed in while she was with Tarasova and now her basic skating seems to be better than ever. She also looked more happy and relaxed than before. And you already mentioned the spins.
The jumps are not there yet, I agree, but since there are obvious improvements in all other areas I think they will get better too. And don't forget in what condition coach Sato got her last year - she couldn't land anything at all.
One jump that I could tell is now much better is actually her double axel, and she didn't do it in the program. But there were a couple of them in the practice clips and they looked huge.

drivingmissdaisy said:

I could see it being frustrating for Mao who grew up with the superior head-to-head against Yuna and then all of a sudden being surpassed by her. It's a bit of bad luck that under the new system the base value of a 3A-2T was lower than that of a 3Z-3T, when the 3A combo is more difficult. This really hurt her in Vancouver. (Of course Mao had an opportunity to adapt and do a 3/3 also but did not (or could not).) I agree that the coaching changes have complicated matters for her and it's a shame because the Mao of 2008 would have challenged Yuna, even in Vancouver. Now she struggles to even medal in any competition and it is very sad to see.

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I think GOE deficiency was the reason why Mao started fixing her jump, not the base value ( Mao got better base value than Yuna always if she jumps all her planned jump, wasn't she? ) . She wasn't able to get the similar GOE like Yuna or, later Ando, and even now her GOE on jumps are worse than Akiko. But, if she jumped 3A here, even with 0 GOE she would have beaten Akiko. So it does make sense for her to jump 3A in SP.

This season's Mao's SP, I am not liking it yet, maybe it'll grow on me later. But I am a bit worried that 3F technique seems to be a bit worse than last time I saw in her training scene. She did a great 3F in that video, no hesitation and great toe timing, much better than the one she did in this SP. Hopefully it's first competition nerve and she'll get to show great program tomorrow.

Spun Silver, I said Lucinda Ruh alludes to abuse from Mr. Sato, never once mentioning his name, nor does the interviewer, but one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to read between the lines.

And the jumps, especially the 3axel, was something Mao always loved to do, just as Lucinda Ruh has always loved the spins. It was something special, only they can do, since they were kids. And in Lucinda's case a sacred magical world all her own, something she could get lost in, and to take her away from the emotional & physical abuse she was receiving as a child.

My wish is that Lucinda befriend Mao and try to explain to her that the greatest teacher is within herself, to love herself, and to listen to her own voice within, though I know it will be difficult, as in Japanese culture the teacher/Mr. Sato is everything.

I don't like Mr. Sato, I think he's an unmentionable. Here's hoping Mao grows a pair of cajones and leaves him, just as Michelle did Frank Carroll.

And that's my last word on the subject. I will continue to support & root for Mao, and pray for her.

I am sorry Nadine, but your allegations against Sato is just ridiculous and I didn't see any evidence for them based on the articles you linked. Also, Mao has talked about the reasons why she wants to make those changes to her skating and they aren't the ones you listed.

Nadine said:

one doesn't need to be a rocket scientist to read between the lines.

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ok so what does one need to be?

It's easier to just read Ruh's book than to be a rocket scientist.

Nadine, it's wrong to accuse someone of abuse without evidence. If Lucinda wanted to make that claim, surely her book would discuss it and it would have come up in an interview based on the book. Since that didn't happen, this charge against Mr. Sato apparently has no foundation. Maybe the mods should delete it as it could seriously affect his reputation.

wallylutz said:

Some people can't accept constructive criticism due to their fandom, there is nothing I can do about that.

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arty:arty:arty:

Now, where is my popcorn.gif?

WHAT is going on here? Allegations of abuse are EXCEEDINGLY severe!

burntBREAD said:

WHAT is going on here? Allegations of abuse are EXCEEDINGLY severe!

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Indeed. Just ask Joe Paterno.

evangeline said:

arty:arty:arty:

Now, where is my popcorn.gif?

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Emperor has no clothes, just don't look at yourself in the mirror b/c you may scare yourself to death.