Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST | Page 15 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Program, Sat. Nov. 12 at 10:55 pm EST

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.

With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.

I'm going to do the same with Takahashi's Worlds 2010 performances to find out what I will see, because those were his best or at least among his very best. I was totally impressed by his indisputable win. I would do the same with Kozuka's best too, i.e. Worlds 2011. And Patrick's SP and Aranjuez, or I may wait for his TEB performance, hopefully he has used up his season's quota of stumbling during jump entries.

I experienced it differently than you with the mute feature. Just looking at the blade work on mute, very obviously Chan excels with his edging and blade work. However, I found Chan's overall skating much weaker with no music playing. I think taking away the music actually highlights Chan's weaker presentation skills. Whereas watching Dai, I found his movements much more dynamic and appealing even without the music. As far as Dai's blade work, it is good, but not as excellent as Chan's. However, Dai is not bad in that aspect either, although obviously Dai does not excel at spinning, but he has improved over the years. I don't think Chan is a great spinner either.

It's important to realize, however, that figure skating is meant to be skated with the music, and that is how it is judged, or should be. The judges do look at slo-mo clips without the music, but they are supposed to take the overall performance with the music into account in their scoring. Clearly, with or without the music, Dai is just a genius with upper body movement, and all over movement too, in addition to excelling at musicality, charisma, and artistic interpretation. Check out Chan's arm movements vs. Dai's (without the music, if you wish) -- huge difference!!! Right from his opening moves, Dai draws us in. Chan, not so much. IMHO, Chan's opening movements have more of a studied quality and less of a natural flow.

Also the choreo will always be a factor in how the skaters are moving IMO. Checking out different programs on mute may or may not reveal anything new.
 
Last edited:

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
^^^Bluebonnett's suggested viewing is to focus on the feet and blade work, ignoring the music as well as the upper body and arms. This is obviously not how the whole programs are judged but it does isolate the Skating Skills, and spins, which I find Chan's superiority surprisingly more than I thought.
 

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
^^^Bluebonnett's suggested viewing is to focus on the feet and blade work, ignoring the music as well as the upper body and arms. This is obviously not how the whole programs are judged but it does isolate the Skating Skills, and spins, which I find Chan's superiority surprisingly more than I thought.

Yes, I viewed both programs on mute looking just at the blade work, and then again on mute looking at their entire bodies. I come to the conclusions I mentioned in my previous post. Obviously, the best way to examine only the blade work is to have isolated close-ups on just the feet -- that would be a better view, but I don't think there is any question that Chan has above average skills with his blades and edging and ice coverage. As far as the other outlined skills, my opinions are as I mentioned. There is not a huge difference between them in each outlined category -- Dai edges in some categories, Chan in others, and they are equal in a few as well. But above all, the difference between Chan and Dai in presentation and artistry is very striking, especially so without the music. Dai is clearly more masterful in those areas, which I think makes him a more complete skater than Chan. I think this is an interesting exercise, and a good discussion.

We happen to come to different conclusions overall, and I'm sure everyone will have slightly different perceptions. Some will say, "Oh you already didn't like Chan on artistry." However, it is amazing to me how much Chan's weakness in artistry becomes even more obvious without the music. Chan's use and positioning of his arms, especially, is not very good (not aesthetically pleasing).
 
Last edited:

evangeline

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
This is really a great way to evaluate the skating itself, without distractions of music, interpretation and performance part. Unfortunately it also takes away Takahashi's strong suits. After watching Patrick's Worlds skate, which is not his best BTW (that would be the Nationals'), Takahashi's skating seems so much "smaller", much less in speed and scope. It almost seems slow and labored. So do his spins, which are much slower and uncentred in constrast to Chan's.

With the music on, Daisuke draws you in with his whole body performance. Which is great but it also draws away from his weaker skills much more than I realized.

Music on or music off, I really don't see how anyone can describe Daisuke's skating as 'slow and laboured.' Not even with an 'almost seems' attached to the front. Not even compared to Patrick Chan.

I think one should keep in mind that the significant differences in choreography and style of movement (yes, even when just watching their feet) between the two men may affect one's perception of their skating skills.
 

demarinis5

Gold for the Winter Prince!
Record Breaker
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
Music on or music off, I really don't see how anyone can describe Daisuke's skating as 'slow and laboured.' Not even with an 'almost seems' attached to the front. Not even compared to Patrick Chan.

I think one should keep in mind that the significant differences in choreography and style of movement (yes, even when just watching their feet) between the two men may affect one's perception of their skating skills.

This!
 

carignan

Rinkside
Joined
Apr 2, 2010
Chan's 2011 World LP vs Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP, Patrick skated it for two years while Daisuke has skated it for just a few months.

I don't know why people want to determine who is better. They are different and both of them are truly fabulous.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Chan's 2011 World LP vs Takahashi's 2011 NHK LP, Patrick skated it for two years while Daisuke has skated it for just a few months.

I don't know why people want to determine who is better. They are different and both of them are truly fabulous.

I also watched Chan's Aranjuez, less practiced than Takahashi's KFB and the observation is the same. I figure it's about the basic standard of skating skills and Takahashi's looks weak only because it is compared to Chan's and when the interpretation and whole body performance are taken out of the picture. I am sure outside of the very few top tier skaters, his skating skills will make others seem slow and laboured.

I can't agree to comparison of musicality and interpretation without music even if one watches the total movements, unless there is a huge gap like between those of entirely different levels. These are subjective enough as it is and even differ between performances by the same skater.

What I can agree whole heartedly to is that both Takahashi and Chan are fabulous skaters and we are lucky that they are both currently competing and spurring each other on.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Yeah, I guess that makes us the "evil twins." :laugh: And probably means our points of view upset you b/c they are not the same as yours.

It's sport and it's debate and ever shall be. Sometimes comments that provoke can end up sparking constructive conversation, as in this instance. Take it all in, enjoy it, stick to your guns, agree to disagree, or become enlightened to maybe viewing things differently and enhancing your perceptions -- doesn't mean your opinions will necessarily change. I for one am glad the Internet is here to share discussion with other skating fans. Sometimes it gets heated, but let's not make it personal. Life is too short. Figure skating will always be about debate. I thank the skate gods for being able to watch and enjoy the skaters I love.

I responded via pm.
 

chloepoco

Medalist
Joined
Nov 1, 2009
I also watched Chan's Aranjuez, less practiced than Takahashi's KFB and the observation is the same. I figure it's about the basic standard of skating skills and Takahashi's looks weak only because it is compared to Chan's and when the interpretation and whole body performance are taken out of the picture. I am sure outside of the very few top tier skaters, his skating skills will make others seem slow and laboured.

I can't agree to comparison of musicality and interpretation without music even if one watches the total movements, unless there is a huge gap like between those of entirely different levels. These are subjective enough as it is and even differ between performances by the same skater.

What I can agree whole heartedly to is that both Takahashi and Chan are fabulous skaters and we are lucky that they are both currently competing and spurring each other on.

I don't agree that Takahashi's 'standard of skating skills' looks weak, whether it's compared to Chan's or not. They both have equally great skating skills.
 

burntBREAD

Medalist
Joined
Mar 27, 2010
If, say, Chan has a 10 in SS you can't say that someone with supposed, a 9 in SS like Takahashi is weak and/or lacking in that area. :disapp:
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
If, say, Chan has a 10 in SS you can't say that someone with supposed, a 9 in SS like Takahashi is weak and/or lacking in that area. :disapp:

I never said Takahashi is weak or lacking, just that in direct comparison of skating skills in isolation, it surprisingly almost seems so, specifically in speed and scope as I stated because Chan skates so huge, sweeping the whole ice surface so fast and smoothly with just a lean or other invisible moves. He just generates speed from nothing, as it's often described. His complex manuevers are done with speed as well, which is extremely difficult. Takahashi's footwork seems fast with all his arms and body moves but not so when only his feet are viewed. This is nitpiking among the best who will render others very weak indeed when scrutinized the same way. The likes of KVDP and Bradley would be unwatchable when viewed with the same critical eye.

BTW, I'm glad to see that Aranjuez's last step sequence is choreographed with very different emphasis from POTO's which was choreographed before the sequence became non leveled to encourage expression with few constraints. All the turns and quick motions in POTO were retained because they went with the passionate and climatic ending of the program. Aranjuez final sequence is not designed with lots of moves for levels but is more sweeping and grand in accordance with the music. Chan's amazing skills are still showcased but differently.
 
Last edited:

Art&Sport

Medalist
Joined
Apr 28, 2011
Music on or music off, I really don't see how anyone can describe Daisuke's skating as 'slow and laboured.' Not even with an 'almost seems' attached to the front. Not even compared to Patrick Chan.

I think one should keep in mind that the significant differences in choreography and style of movement (yes, even when just watching their feet) between the two men may affect one's perception of their skating skills.

ITA! As I said in my previous posts:

Dai's choreo calls for him to be off balance -- that's part of what makes his performance interesting and watchable.

The choreo will always be a factor in how the skaters are moving [and therefore the choreo influences how their movements are perceived].

It can be an interesting exercise to view on mute. I do much prefer watching with the music, but without the usually non-stop commentary.


Here's Dai's Swan Lake hip hop program, which was so much fun:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8pt3Q-J5WU (Russian clip, but commentators don't talk through it)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4YCuZottNEc&feature=related (ESPN with commentary -- tho' I like Paul's take)

The "Cyber Swan" program was an important beginning in Dai's development as a dancer on ice. The program generated a lot of excitement when it debuted, and Dai has come full circle this year with "In the Garden of Souls," and "Blues for Klook."
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
I also watched Chan's Aranjuez, less practiced than Takahashi's KFB and the observation is the same. I figure it's about the basic standard of skating skills and Takahashi's looks weak only because it is compared to Chan's and when the interpretation and whole body performance are taken out of the picture. I am sure outside of the very few top tier skaters, his skating skills will make others seem slow and laboured.

I can't agree to comparison of musicality and interpretation without music even if one watches the total movements, unless there is a huge gap like between those of entirely different levels. These are subjective enough as it is and even differ between performances by the same skater.

I'm glad this method works.:)

I agree with you. Compare Chan's new LP with Takahashi's new LP, I can still see the superiority in this category from Chan. And I'm surprised too that Takahashi's spins were so unflattering under this kind of close observation. I think using this method could analyse all technical details such as jumps, spins, and the levels of footworks. We could even use this method to understand better why and how the judges gave each skater the transition marks they've given.

I also agree with you that it is unfair to use this method to judge anything related to the level of artistry or the level of musicality. It could give you a general understanding of how the skaters move in the programs. But how they move reflecting into the level of artistry or the level of musicality is totally connected with the music. Therefore, the conclusion might be too inaccurate, or even wrong.

Unless you want to determine the range of the style of a skater, or compare the styles of different skaters.:) Not that you can't decide a style with the music. Music helped to decide the style. But without music, you could focus on the details of the movements more. If you want to know more how a skater moves, this might help.

The likes of KVDP and Bradley would be unwatchable when viewed with the same critical eye.

OT: Out of my curiosity, I went to find Bradley's 2011 US National's winning LP and watched it on mute. Try it. Watch his feet. It was almost embarrassing for a US National Champion:p

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Wuyy1yYDi4

Aranjuez final sequence is not designed with lots of moves for levels but is more sweeping and grand in accordance with the music. Chan's amazing skills are still showcased but differently.

I almost want to worship this sequence of his!:biggrin:
 
Last edited:

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I also tried watching Bradley's skating feet.

Sponsors should be very happy with Bradley's skate. Advertisements on the boards can be clearly read as still pictures. With all the stroking Bradley does, he seems to stay on one spot most of the time. On two feet.
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Thanks for the suggestion about watching without music and just focus on the feet. After watching Chan skate, the rest of the field looks pale.
 
Top