Changing Ice Dance Rules & Marina Anissina

Back in 6.0 lots tried to argue that it was not corruption that made all the Soviet and Russian teams win it was about the kinds of dances that the judges believed deserved the highest scores all came from the same place. It was a taste thing and now all the highest scores go to North American teams. Whatever they do not only gets the levels but the most GOE and the programs get the highest PCS or just really high PCS. Whenever DW and VM skater and VM today what makes them so superior to get basically all 9's in PCS against other teams? Same thing for D/W all 9's against other teams. What they do has been decided to be worth the most. It could not be worth the most. The criteria can be intepreted in different ways. But the criteria is being interpreted to make what they do worth the most. And only teams from North America get it. Why can't that be Americanization and when it is used as a insult it could also be a compliment. Ice Dance is moving to say whatever they do is worth the most.

Because the tone of Anissina's comments was clearly not complimentary?

However, this discussion did make me wonder what happened to all those young Russian dancers on the JGP in the recent years.

If you look over old lists of who competed on the JGP, there are more Russian teams than any other country.

What's amazing is how many of these skaters have not been seen with other partners, as well as having disappeared as teams. I particularly wonder about Mikhailova/Sergeev, who finished between V&M and D&W at Junior Worlds in 2006 and Platonova/Maximishin, who finished in 5th behind C&L at the same event.

Natalia MIKHAILOVA / Arkadi SERGEEV RUS 166 cm 181 cm
Anastasia GORSHKOVA / Ilia TKACHENKO RUS 170 cm 180 cm
Anastasia PLATONOVA / Andrei MAXIMISHIN RUS 167 cm 182 cm
Polina JAKOBS / Alexander BAIDUKOV RUS
Julia ZLOBINA / Alexei SITNIKOV RUS (I believe they are skating for Azerbaijan)
Maria MONKO / Ilia TKACHENKO 182 cm 173 cm
Ekaerina RIAZANOVA / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS
Ekaterina PUSHKASH / Dmitri KISELEV RUS (he is skating with a Czech lady for CZE)
Ksenia MONKO / Kirill KHALIAVIN RUS 170 cm 177 cm

And still skating
Ekaterina BOBROVA / Dmitri SOLOVIEV RUS 166 cm 183 cm
Elena ILINYKH / Nikita KATSALAPOV RUS 164 cm 180 cm
Ekaerina PUSHKASH / Jonathan GUERREIRO RUS
Ekaerina RIAZANOVA / Ilia TKACHENKO RUS
Kristina GORSHKOVA / Vitali BUTIKOV RUS 164 cm 176 cm

One thing that I do think has an effect: the Russians definitely perfer the taller ladies, but it is much more difficult to do today's more complex lifts with a tall, thin lady, than a shorter lady like Madison Chock, Maia Shibutani, or Meryl Davis. (all 160 cm or less). The teams with a tall lady seem to have much more problems with the gentleman's knees or back.

Additionally, COP favors the ability to have fast fast fast complex footwork, and as we saw with Brian Boitano and Brian Orser, it is much easier for the shorter guy to have the fast fast fast feet. Charlie White & Scott Moir are the shortest of today's top dancers. This can also be tough on a big guy's knees and ankles with little twists and sprains.

I think the Russians may have to rethink their theory of putting teams together.

By the way, the big difference in size, plus excellent lifts trend was not started by Americans but by the French( D&L had the same coaches as DelSchoes at the end of their career, AFAIR):

Marie-France DUBREUIL / Patrice LAUZON 163 cm 183 cm
Isabelle DELOBEL / Olivier SCHOENFELDER 163 cm 184 cm

What allows V&M to survive the wear and tear of him being rather small and her being the same height as a typical Russian lady dancer is that they appear to learn their routines without as much effort as for less talented teams. They have had to learn to do this because of her legs, but also, it has been good for his knees and back as well.

It is clear what happened to the French. For years, the French dancers either did not do well on the JGP, or broke up almost immediately.

This team (K Monko/Khaliavin) still seems to be very much around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ksenia_Monko

Another point is that most ice dancers are poor spinners, and are slow, especially the back half, same with the twizzles. But the Shibs and Charlie and Meryl are by far the best in this area, which is also why they do such fast twizzles. Charlie still does a mean, fast scratch spin.

Spun Silver said:

This team (K Monko/Khaliavin) still seems to be very much around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ksenia_Monko

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Indeed -- it looks like they just had to withdraw from their GP events this year. I am interested to see how this team does in its transition to seniors. In my view, I feel like perhaps they benefited in having an extra year in juniors to perfect their skills, but I guess we will see...

I believe they had some kind of injury.

It is interesting that two of the most promising senior debutante teams, Monko/Khaliavin (RUS), and Zahorski/Miart (FRA), withdrew from their respective GP debut due to male partners' injuries. Both teams also have similar height differences in that there are only 3 inches differences between the partners.

I dearly hope that these promising male dancers' back and knees withstand rigorous lifts. 'Cause I love both teams.

Papadakis & Cizeron of France are quite a nice looking team as well.

I do like Zahorski / Miart too, and wish them a speedy recovery.

The last time I watched Monko/Khaliavin closely was at the JGPF, and they couldn't have found a beat if they had had a metronome. It was very annoying.

dorispulaski said:

Papadakis & Cizeron of France are quite a nice looking team as well.

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I like Papadakis and Cizeron, too. Let's hope that they come up to senior the next season.

Well, there will be a gaping hole in French seniors when Pechalat & Bourzat retire. I find Carron & Jones over rated when they finish 10th. I liked Blanc/Bouquet, but they could never get their technique straightened out, which was too bad. They were often doing something interesting.

In fact B&B are a good example for this thread. If you are supposed to have speed and clean edges in your choctaw in a pattern dance, that's what you're supposed to have. B&B and their coach were more concerned with content, but they were like reading a really great novel where every word was madly misspelled. Some times you just have to master the tools of your trade, at least to a minimally acceptable level.

I don't think B&B would have succeeded under 6.0 either.

CARA said:

Yeah, but America gets blame, anyway. :think:

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I think in Marina Anissina's head, she still lived in the Cold War mentality. She may have a French passport but she is Russian from top to bottom. For her, it's hard to comprehend that a Ukrainian may actually not see himself/herself as Russian at all, hence it's not surprising she would lump Canadians and Americans together. Then again, the most ironic part is when Ilya Averbukh dumped her to skate with Irina Lobacheva, she actually seriously considered skating for Canada with Victor Kraatz.

dorispulaski said:

This year, Worlds is in Nice. P&B have good programs, and I would be very, very surprised if they did not win at least the bronze. Of course, these days, they train with Krylova in Detroit, but that's new to them, since Zhulin in Moscow was forced to drop non Russian teams. That again is not the fault of COP, or Americans, or Canadians. If they falter, I expect the bronze to go to Bobrova & Soloviev. In fact, last year at Worlds, the Shibs bronze medal was as much due to severe flubs by B&S, P&B, and for that matter I&K as well as their own fine performance. I don't expect them to medal this year-but I expect them to train well, to learn from judges' input previous to worlds, and to skate as well as they possibly can. They might medal...if the others falter again.

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This is one prediction I am comfortable making right now and you can quote me on this - the Shibs will not medal this year at Worlds no matter whether it rains or shines in Nice, ain't happening and not even if Pechalat/Bourzat both went splash on ice again.

Dragonlady said:

"The Americanization of Ice-Dance" makes me laugh because the ISU's Dance Technical Committee has been headed up by a Russian since before SLC. Alexander Gorshkov, now the President of the Russian Federation, headed up the Dance Technical Committee until he recently retired to become the head of the Russian Federation. The current committee chair is a Polish woman and the committee consists of the Chair and one other member from each of Poland, Russia, France and the USA.

The Americans or Canadians controlling ANYTHING in the ISU makes me laugh since neither country has been particularly strong in protecting its interests in the past.

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But insiders will point to the fact that this Polish head of Ice Dance TC is in fact quite North American friendly. She was one of the few who sympathized with B/K's plea of unfair judging back in the 1998-2002 era. Her successful election over Pissev's wife was in part because she would not be prone to some controversial decisions that Gorshkov took to allow DomShab to literally used props during lift while simultaneously outlawed V/M's original goose lift in the 2009-10 season. One of her first decision when she came to power was to undo what Gorshkov did, effectively sent DomShab into a permanent retirement. So while there is no North American control on the Ice Dance committee, it would be foolish to suggest they have been playing sheep for the French and Russians to dictate everything or else god knows what Pissev's wife would have been doing to cook Ice Dance rules by now.

Halina Gordon-Poltorak is in the pocket of the north american ice dance establishment. Not surprising that she would be elected after DW and VM Olympics and worlds 1-2.

All indications was that Shabalin was DONE after Vancouver. Too bad Domnina doesn't want to skate with anyone but him but then she's too old now anyway probably.

wallylutz said:

This is one prediction I am comfortable making right now and you can quote me on this - the Shibs will not medal this year at Worlds no matter whether it rains or shines in Nice, ain't happening and not even if Pechalat/Bourzat both went splash on ice again.

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From what you mentioned, the Shibs have no chance to medal at worlds no matter what at least until after the Sochi. They may have chance only after D/W's retirement, that is, when the Shibs become #1 team in the US regardless of their ability. :think: With all probability, D/W are likely to retire after Sochi, and it would be unlikely for the Shibs to surpass D/W for the next 2 1/2 years.

And the same deal for the Canadina #2 team, W/P. It really doesn't matter no matter how hard they work and improve their skills....:scowl:

Just saying, but the same was said about D&W re B&A and Vancouver.
For that matter, some were very surprised when G&P beat U&Z at the Olympics.

It is possible for a skilled younger team to take away the number one spot, even from a world podium level team.

dorispulaski said:

Just saying, but the same was said about D&W re B&A and Vancouver.
For that matter, some were very surprised when G&P beat U&Z at the Olympics.

It is possible for a skilled younger team to take away the number one spot, even from a world podium level team.

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Once again you are voice of reason. You saved me from falling into "politicking despair."

dorispulaski said:

It is possible for a skilled younger team to take away the number one spot, even from a world podium level team.

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The only way block judging ever worked was when the competition was close enough that you could justify either skater/team winning i.e. I can still make a convincing argument for either B&S or S&P to win the OGM in 2002. When the non-block skater/team was clearly better than their own skater, the judges gave it to the better skater. Right now the North Americans V&M and D&W are so much better than anyone else, it's impossible for anyone to politik their team to the gold.

This board is far too conspiracy happy. Everyone sees bad judging around here, that quite frankly, I don't see.

^^ Well said.

KKonas said:

Another point is that most ice dancers are poor spinners, and are slow, especially the back half, same with the twizzles. But the Shibs and Charlie and Meryl are by far the best in this area, which is also why they do such fast twizzles. Charlie still does a mean, fast scratch spin.

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"By far the best in this area"? Seriously? There is no way that D&W and the Shibs have better spins than V&M. And D&W may twizzle faster, but they're rarely in unison and don't hit good positions while they're twizzling. I would also argue that the Shibs don't hit good positions with their legs while twizzling (although at least Maia holds her arms better than Meryl). Honestly, your USA/D&W/Shibs bias shows no bounds.