Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST | Page 8 | Golden Skate

Men's Free Skate, Sat. 11/19 at 7:30 am EST

skatinginbc

Medalist
Joined
Aug 26, 2010
I figured the only secret emotional turmoil to equal that which caused his Worlds 2010 meltdown would be if he had a mistress pregnant this time!

Sorry for my English ability. What was the "secret emotional turmoil" that caused his Worlds 2010 meltdown? Do you mean his getting his wife pregnant?
By saying "if he had a mistress pregnant", are you implying he has a mistress somewhere? Or is that supposed to be an analogy or joke that I didn't get?
We all know he has a knee injury. So why did you suddenly bring up his "secret emotional turmoil" and then come to a conclusion (physical reason) that we already know?
I'm lost. I don't follow his story often, so do you mind briefly giving me some background knowledge in order to decode your message?
 
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blue_idealist

Record Breaker
Joined
Feb 25, 2006
A bit late but anyways. Oda says his knee hurt bad, which was already injured this summer, when he went for the 3 toe, and he got conscious of the injury all the rest of the program.
http://www.sanspo.com/sports/news/111119/spm1111192323010-n1.htm

I don't think his injury will heal so soon. He might miss the next Worlds, since Hanyu will be more than a threat at Japanese Nats.

ETA: I lost track of when it was that he got injured his knee, but even back then I felt it was something serious reading his tweets to Akiko and Miki.

It's too bad about his knee. I'm glad there's some logical explanation for his meltdown though. I didn't think he was THAT much of a headcase.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Sorry for my English ability. What was the "secret emotional turmoil" that caused his Worlds 2010 meltdown? Do you mean his getting his wife pregnant?
By saying "if he had a mistress pregnant", are you implying he has a mistress somewhere? Or is that supposed to be an analogy or joke that I didn't get?
We all know he has a knee injury. So why did you suddenly bring up his "secret emotional turmoil" and then come to a conclusion (physical reason) that we already know?
I'm lost. I don't follow his story often, so do you mind briefly giving me some background knowledge in order to decode your message?

According to Morozov's interview in Russia, Oda came to him during the Olympics in tears because his girlfriend had just informed him of her pregnancy. He didn't know how to break it to his mother who didn't even know of her. The emotional trouble boiled over to Worlds when he popped every jump in his SP and didn't even make it to the LP. Of course we know everything ended up really well. Nabu had actually expressed his desire to marry and have family a few years prior so it's now a wish come true. As a royal decendent, he did have to consider the protection of his child's heritage. I do feel bad for him to have such a career set back when he's sacrificing his personal life with his family by training in Canada.

I was of course joking about possible news equivalent in disturbing power, which I obviously never took seriously and do not intend to offer evidence or to spread as a real possibility.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Patrick Chan: Man, he was off. Like really really off. Even though he only fell once, I actually preferred what he did at the Japan Open (where he fell three times). Shrug. It’s still an amazing program and I suspect in a few years, it’ll be seen as Chan’s key program. What he’s trying to do here is amazing – I really hope he nails it this season. To be honest, I don’t even think he fought for it all that much either, nor have I seen his skating look so laboured. But those quads were just terrific.

Pogue, I think you are too severe on Patrick. Yes, his face looked pale and didn't have his usual good over all jumps, and fell on circular footworks. But he has maintained his beautiful choreograph and interpretation. His over all performance and execution was good. Not the best he can do, but very, very good. Maybe he didn't have the nenergy like he had in SC in the last sequence. But he was still able to take the audience into his program and to the climax in the end. Notice that the audience started to clap before he even finished his program?!:) Then the audience clapped lauder after the program with some yelling to show that they loved what he just did. I felt his power when I watch it.

I love the sparkles added on his red shirt. It goes well with the music. But still hate the stripes on the black pants. This program really is a masterpiece! I'd love to see it skated perfectly!
 
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jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
I think that is what the complaints are all about. There isn't any risk.

If you fall, you still win. What have you risked?

Would you reward a triple jump and fall, or a pop out single jump? Should they all go back to single jumps since that's low risk of falling. And by the way, a fall gets rewarded ONLY if the jump was fully rotated in which I find a lot of complainers like to ignore that fact.
 
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Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
IPogue and Bluebonnet, now that it is verified that Patrick skated in poor health, it's understandable that he labored through some parts of his LP, but definitely he did fight for it with all his might, contrary to comments of his lack of bravery as well as presumed boredom (not caring). The look of "desperation" was really the look of exhaustion. I'm glad the quick interpretations of his expressions and countenance are dispelled.

I sometimes appreciate Chan's flawed performance more on replay than live because his errors tend to be perceived in exageration by fans taken back by unexpected mistakes and by distractors ready to magnify them. I felt bad about his TEB performance, feeling he was somehow not well, and I didn't wish to rewatch it. I finally did watch the CBC video today because I wanted to hear Kurt's comments. I found myself enjoying and appreciating how well the program was actually skated and performed. His skating skills, viewed with the low camera work, is quite majestic, and he did not let up the energy of the program until the end in spite of his weakness from a few days of fever. I guess the judges did view it quite objectively without the invested emotions of fans and anti-fans.

Like the French lady commentator on his Worlds LP kept saying - Chapeau, mon gars! :thumbsup: to the Worlds Champ.
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Would you reward a triple jump and fall, or a pop out single jump? Should they all go back to single jumps since that's low risk of falling. And by the way, a fall gets rewarded ONLY if the jump was fully rotated in which I find a lot of complainers like to ignore that fact.

I'm not complaining. Just pointing out that the risk is small. If you try a "risky" move and fall, the penalty is not very great -- so why not go for it?
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I don't think I'm going to watch anymore.

After seeing the men's program, I have come to the conclusion that the wrong things are being rewarded. Having a clean program now means nothing. Messy, obvious mistakes mean nothing if the mistake-maker does a couple of twizzles or throws his whole body into his footwork. Also, it has been set up that certain people are unbeatable. Under the old system, champions were held up, but if they skated poorly, they'd have a chance to be beaten. Not anymore.

It's no longer fun to watch, and after my cable dumps Unisports, I probably won't get to anyway. I don't think I'll subscribe to icenetwork or anything like that. What's the point?

If the CoP is fair, because it finally gives the right credit to edges and transitions, I'm glad. Maybe the right people always win, I don't know. But it's getting hard to watch.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I'm not complaining. Just pointing out that the risk is small. If you try a "risky" move and fall, the penalty is not very great -- so why not go for it?

I disagree about the risk being small. E.G. Takahashi certainly would gain quite a few points and possibly higher placements, even an Olympic Gold Medal, by substituting a triple for his quad, which usually rewards him around 2 - 3 points. That's why there are those who admire his determination and those who are puzzled by his stubbornness.
 

Poodlepal

On the Ice
Joined
Jan 14, 2010
I'm not complaining. Just pointing out that the risk is small. If you try a "risky" move and fall, the penalty is not very great -- so why not go for it?

If someone falls doing a jump unique to him or herself, that should be taken into account. When skater A lands a jump but skater B falls on the same jump, it is different. When skater B falls a few times on jumps that skater A landed successfully, skater A should have a comfortable margin. Maybe skater B can make up a few points by being more musical or whatever, but he should not beat him, in my opinion.
 

seniorita

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2008
I want to ask two things, firstly Oda is a royal decendent? WOW! A prince! :)

And second, mistake-maker is a real word?Or something like the ring-bearer?
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I want to ask two things, firstly Oda is a royal decendent? WOW! A prince! :)

More like a Warlord, who united much of Japan. I know, Oda looks nothing like a Warlord, but his ancestors were.

eta: Wiki's account of Oda Nobunaga.

Scroll down to Later descendants to see Nobunari Oda mentioned. Also the entry of Nobunari Oda. Read Personal life.
 
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Joined
Mar 14, 2006
^^ Ring-bearer is a real word (if only a wedding word). But mistake-maker... well, English is very flexible. Is it easy to make up words in Spanish? (If that's your language, seniorita - I don't remember.)
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Pogue, I think you are too severe on Patrick. Yes, his face looked pale and didn't have his usual good over all jumps, and fell on circular footworks. But he has maintained his beautiful choreograph and interpretation. His over all performance and execution was good. Not the best he can do, but very, very good. Maybe he didn't have the nenergy like he had in SC in the last sequence. But he was still able to take the audience into his program and to the climax in the end. Notice that the audience started to clap before he even finished his program?!:) Then the audience clapped lauder after the program with some yelling to show that they loved what he just did. I felt his power when I watch it.

I love the sparkles added on his red shirt. It goes with the music more. But still hate the stripes on the black pants. This program really is a masterpiece! I'd love to see it skated perfectly!

I went and rewatched it. For me, it's off from the get go. Watch his opening move. It's a simple, elegant maneuver that signifies his intention: calm speed, controlled passion. At the Japan Open and SC, it's startlingly fast and surprisingly expressive. At TEB, it's less so (full disclosure: I have HD video of the JO and SC performances, but not of the TEB). But the double axel was wonky, of course and the fall during the footwork devastating. At that point, he fell behind the music and struggled to catch up. The death drop spin, so wonderful when timed with the flourish and generally so huge, was less so here. Now, I will say I understated his fight. Landing the triple loop, with that brief entry, was impressive (the loop is his second weakest jump, after the triple axel). He clearly put all of himself into those quads. It's not the worst he's ever skated, but it felt like it.

I agree with you: this program is a masterpiece. I truly believe that when skated clean, I will consider it one of the all time great programs (according to me).

SF, I want him to be bored with "Take Five," actually. I want him to stop keeping programs (and I want him to explore other choreographers, but whatever).
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
I disagree about the risk being small. E.G. Takahashi certainly would gain quite a few points and possibly higher placements, even an Olympic Gold Medal, by substituting a triple for his quad, which usually rewards him around 2 - 3 points. That's why there are those who admire his determination and those who are puzzled by his stubbornness.

I do not consider that a big risk. Let's say he gets 3 points for a failed 4 flip, as opposed to 5.3 points for a successful 3 flip. That's a penalty of only 2.3 points.

If he rotates the 4 flip but then falls, the penalty is approximately 0.

If he succeeds with the 4 flip he gets 10 points or so -- double the value of the 3-flip.

There certainly isn't any additional penalty in the PCSs, as we just saw.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I do not consider that a big risk. Let's say he gets 3 points for a failed 4 flip, as opposed to 5.3 points for a successful 3 flip. That's a penalty of only 2.3 points.

If he rotates the 4 flip but then falls, the penalty is approximately 0.

If he succeeds with the 4 flip he gets 10 points or so -- double the value of the 3-flip.

There certainly isn't any additional penalty in the PCSs, as we just saw.

Quad risks varies among the skaters, depending on the likelihood of success, which is why most would not try it in a competition until there is an acceptable chance of success. Of course with the rule change, the acceptable rate of success for each skater has fallen. E.g. whereas a skater might only try it in competition with confidence factor of 90% when the penalty was high may now do it with a 75% success rate. A risk taker may drop the practice success rate to 50% these days before actual attempts in competition. Patrick Chan waits for 80% success in practice before putting it in the program in competition.

If we look at Takahashi's Quads, from Quads Of The Season that I compiled, he had just one success all of last season, a 4T at NHK, and his 3 other quads earned him 2 - 3.50 points, 1 - 2.5 with fall deductions, and I assumed his attempt at Worlds would have likely failed as well. A 3F has a base value of 5.30, 5.83 if done during the second half of the program, and he is likely to receive GOE too, especially without the quad attempt taking out his energy. Thus, in 75-80% of cases, he is certain of giving away at least 2.8 points from his already relatively low TES, more with +GOE for his 3F. His 4F at NHK 2011 is relatively successful, with a < instead of usual << and it earned him (5.0 -1.0 =)4 points, still less than an OK 3F at 5.3 or 5.83. If he were to do a 3Lz (worth 6.0 or 6.6 with bonus) instead, the point deficit increases to 3.5 or more. Considering it was also at NHK that he had the sole quad success last year, it is not necessarily encouraging for success for the rest of the season. However, maybe he does feel more confident this season with a fully repaired knee.

At Takahashi's rate of success, it is a big risk, an almost certain loss of valuable points at crucial competitions, eating away his PCS advantage, even before we consider the effect of his poorly invested energy in the quad. He is so used to falling at the quad attempt at the beginning of his program so the program disruption is stabilized and minimized, still it might help his P/E without the fall.

The risk for someone able to at least fully rotate the quad most of the times, it's a worthwile risk. But it's not a certainly, especially for skaters beginning quad attempts in competitions even if they do full rotations regularly in practice. Then again, we see over and over how later jumps and sometimes the whole program just fall apart after a quad attempt, successful or not. There is still a heavy price aka risk except for the few for whom quads are routine. Or maybe, as we have seen what happens with Kevin Reynalds.

I expect the psychological effect of more and more quads attempted and landed will make the its negative impact on the program much less than before. But as of now, I really can't agree that there is no risk in quad attempts. Only the risk varies with different skaters, depending on their rate of success, the quad's impact on their program, and on their stakes in the competition.
 
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Tinymavy15

Sinnerman for the win
Record Breaker
Joined
Dec 28, 2006
I don't skate. I imagine skating with a fever is like walking on a rope with vertigo. The thought of it makes me dizzy already.

it is not the dizzy feeling as much as the fatigue that is a factor (at least for me). When I have a fever I don't even feel like stroking around, never mind trying my hardest jumps and skating and performing through a 4:30 program.

Poodlepal, favorites have always been and always will be held up to some degree. I always said Chan was usually over scored in the past, but I have to admit this freeskate is a masterpiece and he skates it with "presence" something he did not always have and something that you kind of have to be in the arena to feel. This is the same presence Lysacek demanded after he won his world title, and what in the end awarded him the OGM
 
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Patrick Chan waits for 80% success in practice before putting it in the program in competition...

{Takahashi's) 4F at NHK 2011 is relatively successful, with a < instead of usual << and it earned him (5.0 -1.0) = 4 points, still less than an OK 3F at 5.3 or 5.83. If he were to do a 3Lz (worth 6.0 or 6.6 with bonus) instead, the point deficit increases to 3.5 or more.

Actually, I believe it was 5.60 - 1.00 for his quad flip attempt at HNK.

Now let's see what he could put into his program as the eighth jumping pass that would get him more than 4.60 points. He already has two triple Axels and two triple flips. He also has a Lutz, Loop, Salchow and toe. So he couldn't replaces the 4F with any triple, He has three combos, so he can't do another combo or sequence. He is Zayaked out (the fate of all men who try to do as many triples as possible without a quad.)

So let's say he puts a double Axel (3.3 points) in that spot.

As for consistency in practice, I bet in practice Takahashi can rotate three and a half times and then fall fairly consistently -- 80% of the time for sure.

So COP-wise he absolutely should go for the 4F<+fall in every program -- no risk at all, compared to the alternative jump layouts that he might try. As a bonus, he gets to do three flips, his best jump.

Buttle figured it out. So can Takahashi.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
How about a 4T? Something he has actually landed (NHK 2010). It's easier than the 4F, so he'll more likely get better rotation/better GOEs consequently.
 
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