What makes a good death spiral

ImaginaryPogue · Nov 27, 2011

Which teams had your favourite? Has COP helped or hurt them? I suspect I have actually no idea what makes a death spiral good. I know what I like (low but not touching the ice, good speed, nice line in the lady), but I don't know if that makes it good (then or now).

Spun Silver · Nov 27, 2011

I would add timing to your list. I can't remember which team I saw recently that put their DS at the end of their program, but it was dramatic and seemed riskier somehow. I don't know if it gets them any points, though.

chloepoco · Nov 27, 2011

ImaginaryPogue said:
Which teams had your favourite? Has COP helped or hurt them? I suspect I have actually no idea what makes a death spiral good. I know what I like (low but not touching the ice, good speed, nice line in the lady), but I don't know if that makes it good (then or now).

I have no idea what makes a death spiral good either; however, I do like the way Takahashi and Tran's looks.

jcoates · Nov 27, 2011

My faves were by Underhill and Martini. Very low, marvelous back arch, stretch, toe point and leg line from her and terrific low pivot from him. Nothing looked strained with them. Other fine ones IMO: Tai and Randy, the Protopopovs (note they are in their 50s here; amazing control), the Carruthers, Meno and Sand, Starbuck and Shelley (John Nicks trained a mean death spiral), Sale and Pelletier.

I do feel this is one element that has suffered under COP. too many contortionist positions were called for for so long that the basic technique of the element deteriorated among many teams.

gmyers · Nov 27, 2011

Natalia Mishkutenok-Artur Dmitriev

This is like my favorite move in Pairs skating ever

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=7-lIi2YAJyY#t=273s

Though he doesn't have the posture I usually think of as great she seems great to me!

DianaSelene · Nov 27, 2011

I'm not sure but I really like the death spirals of V/T and Totmianina/Marinin.

Olympia · Nov 27, 2011

jcoates said:
My faves were by Underhill and Martini. Very low, marvelous back arch, stretch, toe point and leg line from her and terrific low pivot from him. Nothing looked strained with them. Other fine ones IMO: Tai and Randy, the Protopopovs (note they are in their 50s here; amazing control), the Carruthers, Meno and Sand, Starbuck and Shelley (John Nicks trained a mean death spiral), Sale and Pelletier.

I do feel this is one element that has suffered under COP. too many contortionist positions were called for for so long that the basic technique of the element deteriorated among many teams.

I knew that someone would beat me to claiming Underhill and Martini. So I'll just second you. They really were peerless in this, weren't they? Another spiral I loved, which couldn't be done in amateur skating, was the "flying" spiral that Gordeyeva and Grinkov used to do. After a few revolutions on the ice, Sergei would somehow levitate Katia into the air, and she would float in orbit around him for a revolution or so. Centrifugal force at its most poetic!

jcoates · Nov 27, 2011

Here's a bit more from a documentary with Tai and Randy on how the learned and perfected their BO death spiral.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=uw_KPtqwwxc#t=104s

Serious Business · Nov 28, 2011

For me, it's the man's position that's the worst under the COP: An arm exchange is mandatory for a level 4 death spiral, and usually it's the man who changes arms. After the arm change, the male skater is forced to slump his shoulder and look like he's dragging a suitcase up some bumpy stairs. There is no way to make the move attractive. I used to hold out hope that some pair would find a way, but after 6 years, I think it's safe to give up.

It seems they have gotten rid of putting the woman in a contortionist position as a level feature for the death spiral, would be awful nice if they jettisoned the arm hold feature as well. Have the maximum level for death spirals be 3. What's wrong with 3? 3 is a perfectly nifty number. From the Christian God to ménage enthusiasts to the number of medals at most competitions, the number 3 gets around. Why do they have to have 4 levels for death spirals? For anything?

dorispulaski · Nov 28, 2011

I hate shoot the duck entries into death spirals and funny leg holds by the lady.

As to what make a good death spiral, one of the joys of COP is that they tell you:

Here's what gets you the levels:

Number of features for Levels: 2 for Level 2, 3 for Level 3, 4 for Level 4

1) Difficult entry (immediately preceding the death spiral) and/or exit
2) Change of man’s pivot position (not for SP)
3) Change of lady’s and/or man’s arm hold (1 rev. with each hold)
4) Additional revolution(s) of the lady after the first revolution (counts as many times as repeated)
Features 3 and 4 are counted only if both partners are in “low” positions (see Clarifications in 1611 )

General remarks

Death Spirals
In the final position while the Lady is performing the actual death spiral, both the Man and the Lady must execute a minimum of one (1) revolution with the knees of the Man clearly bent and in full pivot position. For a possible higher Level, the Man should stay in a low pivot position (this is when the lower part of his buttocks is not higher than the upper part of the knee of the pivot foot). The Lady simultaneously must skate on a clean edge with her body and head close to the ice surface, however she must not touch the ice with her head or assist herself with the free hand or any part of the body. The Lady’s body weight is supported by the force of the spiraling edge and the hold of the Man.
The Man must be in a centered position with a fully extended arm.
Any kind of position is counted as a feature if Skaters’ hold lasts for at least one (1) revolution.

GOE

e) death spirals: a smooth entry and exit, the even descent into the spiral by the Lady, the maintenance of the pivot position by the Man and the position of the Lady's body and head should be close to the ice surface during the execution of the actual death spiral;

Deductions:

Fall -3
Wrong pivot positition (by man) such as losing the toe pick, etc -2 to -3
Lady assisted not only by the blade -2 to -3
Poor position by the lady (too high, etc.) -1 to -3
Poor exit -1 to -3
Slow or reduction in speed -1 to -3
Weak lady's edge quality -1 to -3

Additional remarks

Death Spirals: Difficult entry to a death spiral should be on the curve and on the leg of the death spiral
and while acquiring the actual death spiral position there should be a continuous and not too prolonged
movement to this position.

If during the Death Spiral Lady’s head never reaches the level of her skating knee, the Death Spiral will
have no value.

Violet Bliss · Nov 28, 2011

A skating journalist's first hand experience:

Death spirals with David Pelletier

skateluvr · Nov 28, 2011

The best spiral would be if someone actually died after the correct number of rotations! :eek:

jcoates · Nov 28, 2011

Serious Business, that line about threes is delightful. I needed to laugh. Nice job. (BTW, please never change your avatar. It's my all time fave in part because Madison looks like a friend of mine.) I so wish Meno and Sand's iconic death spiral would count as level 4. Sadly because the man comes out of his pivot to change the lady's position probably negates the move's level.

blue dog · Nov 29, 2011

I know its possible to change direction in a lift. Is it possible in a death spiral without the pair collapsing?

FlattFan · Nov 30, 2011

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcaRUJpOGgE&feature=player_detailpage#t=167s

Takahashi & Tran have the best DS. Very innovative entry into the DS.

Another super cool DS by Yamaguchi & Galindo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62iI8SbLm-I&feature=player_detailpage#t=250s

I'm baffled why Y&G didn't at least win a world medal. Their programs had real choreography, super hard jumps even by today standard, innovative lifts, spiral, etc... They had everything.

Vash01 · Nov 30, 2011

FlattFan said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcaRUJpOGgE&feature=player_detailpage#t=167s

Another super cool DS by Yamaguchi & Galindo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62iI8SbLm-I&feature=player_detailpage#t=250s

I'm baffled why Y&G didn't at least win a world medal. Their programs had real choreography, super hard jumps even by today standard, innovative lifts, spiral, etc... They had everything.

Y&G competed at the senior worlds level for just two seasons. They had a lot of potential that was never realized due to their split at that point. They did a lot of difficult things for a young pair, but they were outclassed by the more mature pairs like M&D and G&G, and even Bechke & Petrov. They did not have the speed and finesse of the more experienced pairs. Had they stuck around they would have won a world medal. In 1989, their first appearance at the senior world championships, they finished just off the podium (4ht or 5th). Their coach died after that. In 1990 they had problems in their LP, possibly due to the lack of enough practice time. Kristi moved to Edmonton to practice singles with her coach Christy Ness. Rudy stayed in California (possibly his home town San Jose), and their pairs coach John Nicks was in Southern California. It was impossible to keep skating pairs and singles at that point, so Kristi quit pairs and focused on singles.

Vash01 · Nov 30, 2011

Talking of good death spiral, Gordeeva-Grinkov had perfect death spirals- positions, lines, and going around for a long time. They were absolutely perfect.

Also the Protopopovs had gorgeous death spirals. I very much prefer the classic death spirals to what we are seeing now- less attention to positions, lines, and more attention to point getters (e.g. changing the hand, using 2 hands, etc.).

However, I used to like the creativity in the death spirals of Bechke & Petrov.

Also Selezneva-Makarov had some very innovative death spirals.

M&D had gorgeous death spirals using very low positions (her hair almost touched the ice), lines and used her flexibility to create unique moves in death spirals. At one point Artur pulls her up from almost a static position, using his strength.

I will look for the YT links later for these.

blue dog · Nov 30, 2011

Vash01 said:
Y&G competed at the senior worlds level for just two seasons. They had a lot of potential that was never realized due to their split at that point. They did a lot of difficult things for a young pair, but they were outclassed by the more mature pairs like M&D and G&G, and even Bechke & Petrov. They did not have the speed and finesse of the more experienced pairs. Had they stuck around they would have won a world medal. In 1989, their first appearance at the senior world championships, they finished just off the podium (4ht or 5th). Their coach died after that. In 1990 they had problems in their LP, possibly due to the lack of enough practice time. Kristi moved to Edmonton to practice singles with her coach Christy Ness. Rudy stayed in California (possibly his home town San Jose), and their pairs coach John Nicks was in Southern California. It was impossible to keep skating pairs and singles at that point, so Kristi quit pairs and focused on singles.

There was an interview with Moskvina, where she viewed Yamaguchi and Galindo as the pair of the future, whom she thought could dethrone the Russians. I wonder where they would have been if Kristi had, after winning gold in 1992, decided to return to pairs for Lillehammer.

But I agree, their death spiral was awesome!

What makes a good death spiral

ImaginaryPogue

Spun Silver

chloepoco

jcoates

gmyers

DianaSelene

Olympia

jcoates

Serious Business

dorispulaski

Wicked Yankee Girl

Violet Bliss

skateluvr

jcoates

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

FlattFan

Match Penalty

Vash01

Vash01

blue dog

Trixie Schuba's biggest fan!

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