Scott Moir says its a piss off

Olympia said:

In a way, there's nothing more for V/M to achieve. They're so innovative that maybe at this point the rules are constricting their growth. I mean, look at how we've had to dissect their every move and turn to compare their quality with Davis/White--as if one could do such a thing with two such stellar couples. That removes the whole purpose of the programs they've created, which should be taken as a whole, not with cold eyes cast on whether they have a pause in the middle or use the "wrong" kind of lift. I don't know what the possibilities in pro skating are these days, but maybe that's where they're most needed, even if they have to do a lot of that skating internationally at first, in Asia for example, until North Americans get smart enough to know what it is they're missing out on.

Davis/White are just as wonderful, but they're still shooting for their complete medal haul, so it makes sense for them to stay in. But what is meaningful to V/M about getting an additional Olympic gold? For them to have some extra line in a record book? These aren't skaters made for statistical victories. They're made for beautiful skating. Of course, if they stay in eligible skating, I'll be thrilled. But they can't expect to win every time, and if they don't win every time, it's no reflection at all on their uniqueness or excellence.

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Forgive me, this may sound harsh, but it is not intended to be. I find this line of thinking to be excessively defeatist. What do people want, a four year long royal coronation to a second gold with no adversity along to the way? It's what I refer to when I gruffly go on about skating fans not treating it like a sport. Does anyone think Virtue and Moir got where they are now by simply giving up when times got tough? They are competitors and athletes, not beauty pageant contestants. That alone makes them open to statistical analysis apart from any emotional feeling their skating produces.

So what if they've hit a very mild losing streak. It's two competitions for the love of God and suddenly everyone is running around declaring the sky is falling. Nonsense. Did Witt walk away when Thomas beat her at 86 worlds? No. Did Platov throw in the towel when his knees started giving him trouble? No. Is Nadal retiring because he had a rough year vs Djokovic and lost 6 really big tournament finals to him (including the last two majors)? After all, he's won every big title there is to win. He's clearly an all time great. What more does he have to prove? If he thought like the position I'm criticizing, he would be sitting on a beach on Majorca with his girlfriend instead of working his tail off to get ready for new season. My point is there are some people who are so hyper competitive that they actually thrive on such challenges rather than shrinking from them. Remember they just got their highest score ever and lost the FD by such a narrow margin that the random selection of another judge's scores or the use of a different panel could have meant a change in places.

What would an additional Olympic gold mean to them? Let's ask Michael Phelps, or Carl Lewis, or Larissa Latynina, or Dara Torres, or Dmitryi Sautin, or Dick Button, or Irina Rodnina, or Alexander Zaitsev, or Katarina Witt, or Oksana Grishuk or Yevgeny Platov. I'm sure that while the first gold is special for each of them, any subsequent golds they won were actually sweeter in many ways because they were harder to earn. In any sport, under any circumstances, it is always harder to defend a title than to win it the first time. Sometimes, you even come up short. Latynina, Torres and Sutin certainly did. But at least they tried and they likely learned something very valuable about their own character along the way.

As to not comparing them, I could not disagree more. These are skating programs and ice dance teams, not art exhibits in the Louvre. Let's not blow things out of proportion. They have to be compared, particularly when they are so evenly matched that no obvious qualities exist to give one team a clear advantage over the other. In such a situation, nitpicking about the finest details actually does matter and is very necessary. Like it or not, it is doable and is actually the judges' job. As to the purpose of the programs, whether the skaters say it or not, the primary purpose of any eligible program they craft is victory. Of course, they want people to love the routine, but they want to win more than they want adulation. Combining the two makes victory that much sweeter of course, but make no mistake, they want to win and win decisively. If they were only creating programs for the attentions of the audience, they would not still be eligible or in D/Ws case they never would have dropped La Strada for the rules based reasons they have stated. Since the programs are meant to be competitive vehicles first and foremost, they should absolutely be dissected to the Nth degree, at least by the judges and skaters themselves and possibly by many serious fans. That does not mean one can't like a program simply because of it's beautiful nature. You can do both.

Lastly, as to discussions of Bolero, I freely accept that there are those who don't get it or like it. But I only ask if that position is largely rooted in contemporary expectations of what ice dance is or should be? Bolero is significant as a technical exercise because it completely rewrote the rulebook of ice dance. Things like the complex and ever changing holds, linking leg movements, ice overage (even in reverse directions), unexpected patterning, unique lift positions, long flowing edges rather than staccato steps on toe picks and flats. We expect much of that now, but back then it was the height of innovation. Then of course, there is the combination of all of those elements with the slow, sensual build of the music (and it's obvious connotations) from quite slow to it climactic end. It gives the impression that the program is a both a sensual and a cerebral experience on top of the high quality skating being exhibited.

Well, to answer Olympia's question about what's in it for V/M at this point? In a word, GLORY.

To win one OGM could end up being a footnote in history. V/M look like members of the pantheon at this point, but imagine if they lose Worlds and retire, and D/W win Worlds 2012 and 13, the OGM, and another Worlds in 2014. V/M will look like yesterday's team fast and D/W will have six years of glory after defeating the OGMs.

OTOH, if V/M stay in it and have a back-and-forth battle with D/W, or if they actually manage to vanguish D/W, you get at least a great rivalry (money in the bank for everyone concerned and loads of fun for the fans) or at best (for V/M) the possibility of legend. Two OGMs represent the skating equivalent of eternal glory. (The age of 3 or 4 of them is past.)

Spun and Jcoates, you two are probably right. I understand what you're saying about competitiveness and the thirst for glory, and you're almost certainly closer to the mindset of V, M, D, and W than I am. I didn't mean to sound defeatist, of course--I meant something more like Scott and Tessa saying, "You can take your decimal points and shove 'em, because we're finding another arena for our talents, and if there is no other arena, we're starting our own."

I often think I'm entirely the wrong kind of skating fan, because to me it's so beautiful that I frequently forget about the competitive aspect of it. Fortunately, skating is so desperate for fans that I think I get to stay...but my outlook is often quite askew. I might be closer to John Curry's way of viewing skating: I read that he wanted the Olympic gold medal so that people would take him seriously when he went on to develop a vocabulary of skating, so he worked for the medal and got out the minute he had it and the World Championship.

I think if there were a healthier pro circuit, more successful live shows, and more TV exposure for non-eligible skating, my argument might hold more water. But as things are, you guys are telling it as it is. Well, I'll be happy if I get to keep seeing these wonderful skaters in whatever venues they choose, so either way, we all benefit. (Including Tessa and Scott!)

--Olympia (still waiting for the skating movie)

How is it possible for the top two couples to have the same coaches and not have the coaches have a preference? Someone has to get the better program a bit more attention etc. I feel like the environment must be tense. Do Ice Dancers( coaches and pupils) like and thrive on DRAMA?

When the Shpilband/Zoueva students are interviewed, they all talk about what friends they all are, and what a nice atmosphere the training has. S/Z do individual sessions, not group sessions, according to Blanc&Bouquet's coach, who spent a couple of weeks at the school. If I give x hours a day to you exclusively and then x hours a day to your competitors exclusively, how would you feel slighted?

If the kids disliked each other, would you find them as they often do, sharing housing at UMich?

If for example, Shibutani&Shibutani as the third place team at Canton, were with some other coach, would they have done better than 3rd at Worlds last year? Would many people say (again last year) that the best choreography from S/Z was actually Chock & Zuerlein's (their 4th or 5th team, depending on how you count the inactive team of Samuelson/Bates?)

In fact, if Tanith Belbin felt unhappy with the S/Z school and they with her, would she have been able to maintain a long time relationship with Charlie White, and to drop in and watch practices as she does? She & Ben may have left the school for professional reasons, but it does not appear it was because of Drama reasons.

Would Alex Shibutani say, on his GPF interview following the SD, how nice it was to be on the same warmup with Charlie & Meryl and Tessa & Scott, and how it was helpful to Maia and him with their nerves at their very first GPF?

Would Jana Khokhlova talk about the friendliness of the group?

It sounds, at least from the outside, like they maintain a "Team Canton" atmosphere, similar to a track team. Every runner wants to win, but if they can't win, they hope one of their buddies does. I daresay, like with any track team, the odd individual team may not like that or may not thrive with that atmosphere. And I daresay, such teams either do not go to Canton, or leave relatively quickly.

The most difficult situation that has gone public would be Evan Bates leaving Emily Samuelson for Madison Chock, which resulted in Samuelson leaving the school, finding a new partner, and training with her previous coaches. According to an interview, after Madison's partner retired, she had 3 different guys who wanted to skate with her. She picked Evan because he was the easiest to talk to.

Doris, thanks for once again shutting down silly and baseless conspiracy talk with well though out reason.

Doris, thanks!

Another example in addition to the track team one you cited might be some of the elite national gymnastics teams, for example in today's China or in the U.S.S.R. of decades ago. In that system, there was really nowhere else to go, so all the best gymnasts went to the one facility. Even with personality clashes, there must be (or must have been in the case of the Soviet Union) a strong spirit of esprit de corps, of them against the world, especially because a team medal was at stake.

What I have a hard time wrapping my head around in terms of Canton is that because strategy is such an important part of COP, it seems less than ideal that the same set of coaches design the programs for so many top teams. If one is D/W or V/M, I think one would want a coach who was solely trying to help defeat the other, like going through game tapes and using weaknesses in the others' programs to bolster one's own. And that seems impossible when the same coaches are designing the other program.

Professional golfers also often share the same "coaches" whom they call teachers. These are professional relationships they have with their coaches. Why is it so mind-numbingly hard for people to get the idea that D/W and V/M actually thrive on their training environment rather than being stifled by it? Both teams are stronger for having to train in the same environment. The pressure they create provides fuel and motivation they might not have elsewhere. They have proven in their comments that they are both keenly aware of each other's weaknesses. The role the coaches play is to give them every tool at their disposal to improve each team's strengths as much as possible, minimize or shore up their weaknesses and then let them fight it out in competition. That's actually a very healthy method of training and competing in any sport. When I was on the wrestling team in high school or the tennis team in both high school and college, we had to earn our starting positions. We trained side by side, got the same attention from the coach and then sparred head to head to win the spot. No favoritism was involved.

Spun Silver said:

Well, to answer Olympia's question about what's in it for V/M at this point? In a word, GLORY.

To win one OGM could end up being a footnote in history. V/M look like members of the pantheon at this point, but imagine if they lose Worlds and retire, and D/W win Worlds 2012 and 13, the OGM, and another Worlds in 2014. V/M will look like yesterday's team fast and D/W will have six years of glory after defeating the OGMs.

OTOH, if V/M stay in it and have a back-and-forth battle with D/W, or if they actually manage to vanguish D/W, you get at least a great rivalry (money in the bank for everyone concerned and loads of fun for the fans) or at best (for V/M) the possibility of legend. Two OGMs represent the skating equivalent of eternal glory. (The age of 3 or 4 of them is past.)

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1. Six years of glory after defeating the OGMs? Worlds 2011-Worlds 2014 doesn't equal six years. Unless you mean from when they first defeated V/M as seniors - 4CC 2009.

2. It is interesting to see how one defines legacy, though. I think being the youngest ice dancers to win Olympic gold, youngest to win Worlds, the first North Americans to win Olympic Gold and to do so on home ice will all contribute to their legacy - at the very least, help them become more than a footnote. And if they do stay on but never beat D/W again, they look like skaters who stayed past their prime, regardless of what improvements they may make.

Ginask8s said:

How is it possible for the top two couples to have the same coaches and not have the coaches have a preference? Someone has to get the better program a bit more attention etc. I feel like the environment must be tense. Do Ice Dancers( coaches and pupils) like and thrive on DRAMA?

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There are two different questions here. The latter ("DRAMA") doris has skillfully set aside. We've heard nothing but acclaim in this regard. The former, on the other hand, hasn't really been reconciled. Moskovina said when she had two top pairs, you simply did your best for both and let the judges decide. Do Z/S do that? We've heard rumours over the years about Marina preferring V/M and Igor preferring D/W, and the prevelance of the rumours has almost given them the weight of fact. But two things to consider.

a) Zoueva/Shpilband run a business. How successful do you think the business would be if they were consistently favouring one team above the rest? An analogy: when Grishuk felt that Dubova preferred U/Z over G/P, she switched like a light. Both teams have been competing against each other as well as side by side for years now.

b) Is it a terrible thing to have a PERSONAL preference if it doesn't get in the way of one's PROFESSIONAL activities?

CassAgain said:

What I have a hard time wrapping my head around in terms of Canton is that because strategy is such an important part of COP, it seems less than ideal that the same set of coaches design the programs for so many top teams. If one is D/W or V/M, I think one would want a coach who was solely trying to help defeat the other, like going through game tapes and using weaknesses in the others' programs to bolster one's own. And that seems impossible when the same coaches are designing the other program.

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The flipside to that is you want to be with the best COP coaches - currently, that is the Canton crew.

CassAgain said:

What I have a hard time wrapping my head around in terms of Canton is that because strategy is such an important part of COP, it seems less than ideal that the same set of coaches design the programs for so many top teams. If one is D/W or V/M, I think one would want a coach who was solely trying to help defeat the other, like going through game tapes and using weaknesses in the others' programs to bolster one's own. And that seems impossible when the same coaches are designing the other program.

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Nope. That's not how it works in Team Canton. It is really a beautiful atmosphere, as Doris describes. When each team gets equal time with coaches on their own, and each team has programs to suit their strengths, I really don't see the conflict. When they are coaching V/M, it's all about what's best for V/M. When they are coaching D/W, it's all about what's best for D/W. They each have their own strategy and game plan. That's the wonderful thing about Team Canton. They do not impose one way of skating or being on all teams. Although there are many skaters, each has their own plan what makes sense for their own development. I like to think of a rink like this as a family. You may have many children, but you love each one equally and in their own way. Each child has their own strengths and weaknesses, personal preferences, personality traits, etc. As parents you look for ways to champion each child. You don't have to pick and choose favourites, and kids don't have to leave home because 1 or more of their siblings are seeing success. That's ridiculous. For S/Z, time has proven that this individualized approach in a team environment is most successful for them. There is no advantage to them to play favourites. They have a full rink, and many teams winning medals. The top 2 in the world are universally agreed to be in a league of their own. I think this is because of the training environment.

The idea that coaches are prefering D/W and therefore designed them a better program is simply preposterous. Along with more than a few fans and officienados of the sport, I'm sure the coaches and V/M are a little confused at the reception of this program, especially on the PCS side. (Therefore, Scott's comment "it's a piss off" - a confusing, frustrating situation when you don't get what you think you should.) The program would have been designed by coaches and V/M to maximize points for levels as well as PCS. All those little details, the way in which their leg lines match so perfectly, the off-centre lift even where her arms and body are on matching angles with him (the picture posted elsewhere beautifully shows this), the playfulness with the music in "s'wonderful, s'marvelous", all the different movements to the articulation in the music... When I look at the criteria of PCS as beautifully explained by Doris, I don't see how V/M don't win on PCS. There is no one in the world who can interpret and really dance to music like V/M, fitting all those criteria at a ridiculously high level. Their program is unique in a field of big music, high angst, and boldness. It would seem the judges don't know quite what to do with it. So I'm sure V/M and coaches are going back to the beginning, based on feedback from experts and judges, to make what they are doing more obvious and to eke out those extra points where they can.

And I'm sure D/W will also be looking deeply at their programs to ensure they are getting the maximum point benefit as well. When coaches push both teams to be their best, both teams win, and the coaches most definitely so.

To me, this ois just the usual playground boast and challenge. We hear it in schoolyards all the time:

"I'm a moire artistic dancer than you!"

"Sez who?"

"Sez me!"

You can't stop boys from being macho.

IP, by six years I meant Worlds 2012 (or 2011 for that matter) through to 2018. Whoever wins will be "reigning OGM" until then.

One huge plus for top teams to have the same coach is to utterly assure that they will not have the same music or a similar/same costume as each other when they compete at Worlds!

I rather think that Domnina & Shabalin suffered from skating to Polovetsian dances when D&W made their senior debut skating to the same music, for example.

Meryl & Tessa have to be relieved that their competition costumes will be significantly different and will never be in the situation of two girls in the same dress at their senior prom. (This could especially be an issue in short dances, where all the skaters have similarly themed programs.)

dorispulaski said:

Yes, I don't think Scott ever thought he & Tessa were going to lose to Charlie & Meryl if he & Tessa were both healthy. He probably thought that was especially unlikely with the competition being in Canada, and with them having great crowd support there.

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Exactly, the OGM championship ego. Scott comes across as petulant, cocky. He did not seem all that caring and supportive when Tessa was injured. He looked angry when she stopped the skate. Charlie is loveable, and judges want to reward them. It is great to see a rivalry in ice dance between two great but very different couples who really have lovely programs. Scott and Tessa helped bring many new fans to ice dance after years of terrible programs. I hope he sees that as an OGM in iself!

More than any other couple Voir made me want to watch Ice dance and catch up on the scene. I hope he begins to see it is about great skating, not just his pursuit of that second OGM.

A few things/responses.

First, thank you to all who complimented me on the earlier post in this thread. Given the level of knowledge on display here, I was quite pleased that some of you took the time to drop me a compliment. Much appreciated.

About Bolero…Well, I could just say “what jcoates said” and leave it at that. But I want to add two things. First, I’m old enough to have seen it live on television when it first aired. And it may be forgotten now, but at the time there was a great deal of question over whether ice dancing was a “real” sport, or just, as I remember reading at the time, “Lawrence Welk on ice.” There was a very heated debate over whether to drop ice dance from Olympic competition. Bolero put an end to that debate, for the reasons that jcoates has enumerated. I’ll just add one more: it added a real theatricality to ice dance. Of course, for years after that, the theatricality got pushed, often to absurd lengths. So many couples in ice dance were ending their programs by dramatically flopping on the ice that there was a question over whether a Zamboni was needed (ok I kid, but not by much). Oh (and second), it isn’t in my personal top ten or twenty ice dance performances, but I think you underrate its historical importance at your peril. I call it the Picasso Effect: you may admire how revolutionary Picasso was as a visual artist without necessarily wanting to hang one of his paintings over your living room sofa.

Back to Voir…I think the reason I’m personally disappointed with Voir this year is that they are playing it artistically safe. I think FF is, artistically, a major step back from their last two long programs. The “jazz” section of their program is a good example. If you have ever seen the actual FF movie, Audrey Hepburn’s jazz dance is a real highlight. Of course it is played for laughs—see how silly all those bohemians are? Aren’t you glad you can see real dancing by Fred Astaire? The thing is, it may be for ha has and it may be dated as hell, but it also has something that I find Voir’s program to be missing: pizzazz. Or, if you like, a kind of vulgar ShewwwBiz quality (and so many if not most of the great American movie musicals have that to one degree or another). Voir’s interpretation is missing that for me. It’s all very nice and lovely, but it just doesn’t have that Wow! factor for me. Audrey does—she dances the hell out of it.

Given that it is not an Olympic year, I wish that Voir would push their own personal envelope the way that Marlie did last year with their tango Get messy. I think it would do them a world of good.