Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's | Page 11 | Golden Skate

Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
Based on what I read from YouTube (again, can be misleading), what he said seem to imply that only Chan's National score was inflated but not his. Just want to find out if anyone heard anything.

He has compared his Nationals scores to Chan's international's, saying his scores were not as high as Chan's Nationals', but definitely in the same class with Chan's international scores which were beatable, except he was talking about his own Nationals scores. :laugh: Oh, cut the boys some slack. It's posturing time for those who need it.
 
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Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
And for the Short, the new footwork, faster 1 foot skate and overall improvement from last year, I'd say it's worth probably 95-98.

He also replaces the 3F with 3Lz in the SP, that's 0.7 point increment in TES base value. On the other hand, one of his spin is downgraded from level 4 to level 3 (because of the change of the rules, nothing to do with his performance), he loses 0.5 point there. So the total base value only increases 0.2 point.
 
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jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
He also replaces the 3F with 3Lz in the SP, that's 0.7 point increment in TES base value. On the other hand, one of his spin is downgraded from level 4 to level 3 (because of the change of the rules, nothing to do with his performance), he loses 0.5 point there. So the total base value only increases 0.2 point.

Can he change a spin, or add something to lift the level up to 4??
 

let`s talk

Match Penalty
Joined
Sep 10, 2009
Takahashi lost LP was because his TES base value in LP was way less than Hanyu and Kozuka. He won every single category in PCS over clean Hanyu and one-fall Kozuka with his three falls. If that wasn't annoying, then why Chan's was annoying and analysed in split-hair? First attacked his TES. When it was responded with convincing facts and nothing to pick on, it turned on his PCS as if Chan was the only one who received such treatment. Isn't that clear who's biased?!:rolleye:
I agree with you. It's completely clear who is biased: someome who is cheating with facts because he/she has no convincing facts and telling lies is the only thing left. Dai lost LP not because his TES base value was way less than Hanyu and Kozuka (73.13, 75.27, 76.17 accordingly). He lost because his GOE, mainly due to his falls, was slightly over 1 point, while Hanyu and Kozuka got more then 12 (Hanyu) and almost 10 (Kozuka). Easy to do the math that TES difference didn't correspond to GOE numbers and therefore your statement that Dai lost thanks to lower TES is wrong. While J-judges naturally gave Dai higher PCS, simply because he is a more beautiful skaters) than Hanyu and Kozuka (over 86, 81 and 79 accordingly), the difference was again smaller due to mistakes that affected the general impression of skating and not enough to "pull" him to the win, even if they could easily do that since it was Nationals that are too often inflated. But he got punished by J-judges for his mistakes and lost LP to his opponents. The thing that never happens to Chan, even at international events. Disgusting.
 

ImaginaryPogue

Record Breaker
Joined
Jun 3, 2009
Bluebonnet, the three-fall skates are actually interesting in terms of comparison. In Chan's two three-fall long programs, he scored PCS of 81.30 (CoR, 2010) and 84.06 (Japan Open, 2011). Both times, his PCS was lower than Dai's at Nationals 2011/12, where Takahashi scored 86.90. Indeed, it's fascinating to compare the Japan Open and Japanese Nationals scores for both

Chan's LP: TES: 159.93 (78.87, PCS: 84.06)
Dai's LP: 158.55 (TES: 74.65, PCS: 86.90)

Because Chan is so good at base-valuing, he actually is held up a lot less on PCS than Daisuke was here - Dai's messy elements were worth 12 points less than his program component score, whereas Chan's flawed elements scored six points less than his PCS. Now, this isn't like Abbott getting twenty points more on PCS than TES (CoR, 2011) - or we could compare it to Dai getting held up by an epic 25 points in the Japan Open, but it's still notable. You see just how much Chan's smart program construction helps him absorb those errors, and how much is overall skating strength - his strong spins, his amazing footwork, and stronger jumps (when landed, of course) with all those insane transitions.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
Can he change a spin, or add something to lift the level up to 4??

Patrick's body is not very flexible. He has never done a Bielmann (although he said jokingly that he didn't want to lose respect from other men), and he hasn't done a donut for years. If he can do either one, or an A spin or Y spin, then he can bring back the spin to level four. But I don't think it's worthy. I'd add another quad to sp.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
I'd very much rather enjoy Patrick's beautiful Camel position. The poor guy will just have to add a new quad instead of a new ugly donut. What else can he do? :confused2:
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
He could change feet with a jump in his combination spin to get level 4, but if he loses speed and centering it wouldn't be worth it. I'm assuming they've tried and he couldn't execute the maneuver well enough for it to be worthwhile, but perhaps this is one code-whoring point they missed and he can add in next season.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Bluebonnet, the three-fall skates are actually interesting in terms of comparison. In Chan's two three-fall long programs, he scored PCS of 81.30 (CoR, 2010) and 84.06 (Japan Open, 2011). Both times, his PCS was lower than Dai's at Nationals 2011/12, where Takahashi scored 86.90. Indeed, it's fascinating to compare the Japan Open and Japanese Nationals scores for both

Chan's LP: TES: 159.93 (78.87, PCS: 84.06)
Dai's LP: 158.55 (TES: 74.65, PCS: 86.90)

Because Chan is so good at base-valuing, he actually is held up a lot less on PCS than Daisuke was here - Dai's messy elements were worth 12 points less than his program component score, whereas Chan's flawed elements scored six points less than his PCS. Now, this isn't like Abbott getting twenty points more on PCS than TES (CoR, 2011) - or we could compare it to Dai getting held up by an epic 25 points in the Japan Open, but it's still notable. You see just how much Chan's smart program construction helps him absorb those errors, and how much is overall skating strength - his strong spins, his amazing footwork, and stronger jumps (when landed, of course) with all those insane transitions.

Thanks, IP! Great way to see it!:yes:
 

fscric

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
Bluebonnet, the three-fall skates are actually interesting in terms of comparison. In Chan's two three-fall long programs, he scored PCS of 81.30 (CoR, 2010) and 84.06 (Japan Open, 2011). Both times, his PCS was lower than Dai's at Nationals 2011/12, where Takahashi scored 86.90. Indeed, it's fascinating to compare the Japan Open and Japanese Nationals scores for both

Chan's LP: TES: 159.93 (78.87, PCS: 84.06)
Dai's LP: 158.55 (TES: 74.65, PCS: 86.90)

Because Chan is so good at base-valuing, he actually is held up a lot less on PCS than Daisuke was here - Dai's messy elements were worth 12 points less than his program component score, whereas Chan's flawed elements scored six points less than his PCS. Now, this isn't like Abbott getting twenty points more on PCS than TES (CoR, 2011) - or we could compare it to Dai getting held up by an epic 25 points in the Japan Open, but it's still notable. You see just how much Chan's smart program construction helps him absorb those errors, and how much is overall skating strength - his strong spins, his amazing footwork, and stronger jumps (when landed, of course) with all those insane transitions.

Thanks.
 

Boeing787

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 21, 2011
He could change feet with a jump in his combination spin to get level 4, but if he loses speed and centering it wouldn't be worth it. I'm assuming they've tried and he couldn't execute the maneuver well enough for it to be worthwhile, but perhaps this is one code-whoring point they missed and he can add in next season.

To my knowledged, since he has used jump to get level 4 in LP, he cannot use it in SP. Correct me if I am wrong.
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
Patrick's body is not very flexible. He has never done a Bielmann (although he said jokingly that he didn't want to lose respect from other men), and he hasn't done a donut for years. If he can do either one, or an A spin or Y spin, then he can bring back the spin to level four. But I don't think it's worthy. I'd add another quad to sp.

Oh God, the donute, A and Y spins are the ugliest spins ever! I hate all those 3 spins, really. I believe Yuna did the Y spin at Olympic...I thought...lady, put your leg down... that's not pretty.
 

jettasian

Match Penalty
Joined
Mar 21, 2009
He could change feet with a jump in his combination spin to get level 4, but if he loses speed and centering it wouldn't be worth it. I'm assuming they've tried and he couldn't execute the maneuver well enough for it to be worthwhile, but perhaps this is one code-whoring point they missed and he can add in next season.

Or perhaps he doesn't need this code-whoring point for now.
 

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be
Record Breaker
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Country
France
To my knowledged, since he has used jump to get level 4 in LP, he cannot use it in SP. Correct me if I am wrong.

Certain elements of Death Spirals in Pairs programs are the only thing that are restricted to "once per competition".

Also, Patrick Chan doesn't use a jump to execute a change-of-foot anywhere in his long program (and neither of his combination spins there are Level 4 either).

In fact, you are allowed to use the "change of foot executed by a jump" feature more than once in the same program and still have it count as a level feature for every spin where it is used.
 

Violet Bliss

Record Breaker
Joined
Nov 19, 2010
These days, Chan actually has higher TES than PCS in the second half of the season, as in Nationals 2011 and 2012, Worlds 2011, GPF 2011, and LP GPF 2010, with SP PCS just 0.28 higher than TES. Let's see if this continues in 4CC. I don't believe Daisuke ever has PCS lower than his TES the latest two seasons, with his PCS significantly higher at times.

jettasian said:
Oh God, the donute, A and Y spins are the ugliest spins ever! I hate all those 3 spins, really. I believe Yuna did the Y spin at Olympic...I thought...lady, put your leg down... that's not pretty.

:laugh:
 

fscric

On the Ice
Joined
Oct 28, 2004
He could change feet with a jump in his combination spin to get level 4, but if he loses speed and centering it wouldn't be worth it. I'm assuming they've tried and he couldn't execute the maneuver well enough for it to be worthwhile, but perhaps this is one code-whoring point they missed and he can add in next season.

I'm quite perplexed by this use of phrase here, isn't maximizing point the spirit of entering a competition?

In any case, I'd prefer it to attention-whoring.
 

Bluebonnet

Record Breaker
Joined
Aug 18, 2010
Patrick's body is not very flexible. He has never done a Bielmann (although he said jokingly that he didn't want to lose respect from other men), and he hasn't done a donut for years. If he can do either one, or an A spin or Y spin, then he can bring back the spin to level four. But I don't think it's worthy. I'd add another quad to sp.

Oh, I'm so happy that he's never done Bielmann and don't do donut spin any more. They are ugly in men! I agree with you. Add another quad would be good.
 
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