Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Blades of Passion · Feb 1, 2012

fscric said:
I'm quite perplexed by this use of phrase here, isn't maximizing point the spirit of entering a competition?

That phrase refers to doing something in order to add technical points to the program, even though it objectively hurts the quality of an element and/or the program as a whole. When judges don't properly punish these things in their scores, it gives skaters the incentive to plan their programs as such.

jettasian · Feb 1, 2012

I still can't believe Donut, A and Y spins are level 4. They should have -GOE just for their ugliness! Whoever even had thought of creating such spins...

Blades of Passion said:
That phrase refers to doing something in order to add technical points to the program, even though it objectively hurts the quality of an element and/or the program as a whole. When judges don't properly punish these things in their scores, it gives skaters the incentive to plan their programs as such.

I don't think changing a spin (increasing its difficulty) would hurt a program as a whole. Footwork, maybe, speed, maybe.

Blades of Passion · Feb 1, 2012

jettasian said:
I don't think changing a spin (increasing its difficulty) would hurt a program as a whole.

Oh really?

www.youtube.com/watch?v=qOP-3VXkNBc&t=2m38s

So you're telling me the painfully awkward way he tried to hold that last spin position for 8 revolutions in order to gain .4 extra base value points didn't hurt the program (not to mention the quality of the element)?

let`s talk · Feb 2, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Indeed, it's fascinating to compare the Japan Open and Japanese Nationals scores

Lol at this desperate attempt. The scores gained at Nationals and at international events cannot be compared a priori. Yeah, when the valid points to back up the statement are not available, cheating with facts is the only way left. :laugh:

Bluebonnet · Feb 3, 2012

let`s talk said:
Lol at this desperate attempt. The scores gained at Nationals and at international events cannot be compared a priori. Yeah, when the valid points to back up the statement are not available, cheating with facts is the only way left.

There is no desperate attempt here. Or you mean Jeremy Abbott was desperate to compare his own National scores with Patrick Chan's international scores? It's another way to look at it or it's a fun way to look at it from different angle.

ImaginaryPogue · Feb 3, 2012

Daisuke Takahashi
Japan Open (LP only)
TSS: 130.79
TES: 53.15
PCS: 78.64
Differential of 25.49 points, in favour of PCS

Skate Canada LP
TSS: 153.21
TES: 69.37
PCS: 83.84
Differential of 14.47 points, in favour of PCS

NHK LP
TSS: 169.32
TES: 80.04
PCS: 90.28
Differential of 10.24 points, in favour of PCS

GPF LP:
TSS: 172.63
TES: 87.05
PCS: 85.58
Differential of 1.49 points, in favour of TES

The average differential is 12.18 (12.1775). So compared to his TES, his PCS gets about a 12 point boost in the LP.

Patrick Chan
Japan Open (LP only)
TSS: 159.93
TES: 78.87
PCS: 84.06
Differential of 5.19 points, in favour of PCS

Skate Canada LP
TSS: 170.46
TES: 84.82
PCS: 87.64
Differential of 2.82 points, in favour of PCS

TEB LP
TSS: 156.44
TES: 72.30
PCS: 85.14
Differential of 12.84 points, in favour of PCS

GPF LP:
TSS: 173.67
TES: 87.59
PCS: 87.08
Differential of .51 points, in favour of TES

The average differential is 5.09 (5.085). So compared to his TES, his PCS gets about a 5 point boost in the LP.

Now, of course, this doesn’t mean Patrick Chan isn’t overscored – you can be overscored in TES if the GOES are too generous (and I believe Chan is overscored here sometimes as well), but the numbers for the long programs in their four competitions indicate that Dai’s PCS are held up as compared to his TES more than Chan’s.

---

Is anyone interested in me doing the same for the short program? For other skaters?

Violet Bliss · Feb 3, 2012

Takahashi:

NATIONALS
TES: 74.65
PCS: 86.90
Differential of 12.25 in favor of PCS

WORLDS 2011

TES: 71.64
PCS: 82.08
Differential of 10.44, in favour of PCS

4CC 2011
TES: 78.65
PCS: 82.86
Differential of 11.22 in favour of PCS

Chan:

NATIONALS

TES: 103.21
PCS: 97.50
Differential of 5.71 in favour of TES

WORLDS 2011

TES: 96.44
PCS: 91.52
Differential of 4.92 in favour of TES

I don't feel it's a matter of PCS holding up particular skaters at particular events. PCS is simply more stable than TES though influenced by it. So when a high PCS skater falters in technical elements, TES drops significantly lower than their PCS, creating a large differential compared to usual. The fact is, Takahashi had a bad 2010-2011 season and such differentials were even more outstanding but when either of the two top Men does well in their elements, there is little difference or even a higher TES. (eta. Though Takahashi's 4CC winning scores still involved much higher PCS. Hmmm.) Believe it or not, Joubert, known for his quads, had much higher PCS than TES often last season. I have not even looked at his scores this season.

Violet Bliss · Feb 3, 2012

Kozuka 's LP

4 CC 2011
TES 83.19
PCS 75.08
Difference 8.11 for TES

Worlds 2011
TES 98.53
PCS 82.26
Difference 16.27 for TES

Nationals
TES 84.87
PCS 81.50
Difference 3.37 for TES

Skate America 2011
TES 68.54
PCS 74.86
Difference 6.32 for PCS

NHK 2011
TES 76.67
PCS 78.58
Difference 1.91 for PCS

Kozuka lost LP by PCS in Worlds, 4CC, and Nationals. For such a first rate skater, something has to be done about that.

Bluebonnet · Feb 3, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Is anyone interested in me doing the same for the short program? For other skaters?

Please! I mean if you have time. They are very interesting!

Mathman · Feb 3, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
...the numbers for the long programs in their four competitions indicate that Dai’s PCS are held up as compared to his TES more than Chan’s.

I agree with SkateFiguring in wondering about the language "held up." Couldn't we simply say that Takahashi earned higher program component scores than element scores in several competitions?

I can imagine a skater who always got deservedly high element scores but abysmal component scores (Van der Perren?), as well as vice versa.

Boeing787 · Feb 3, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
Kozuka 's LP
Kozuka lost LP by PCS in Worlds, 4CC, and Nationals. For such a first rate skater, something has to be done about that.

Kozuka is similar to Patrick in many ways: good basic skating skills and jumping technique, but not a natural dancer. He is not very good at using his arms/hands/neck/head/face in performance. But, Patrick has better SS, better choreography, more difficult transitions, and his performance is more expressive than Kozuka’s in general. That’s why his PCS is higher.

To get higher PCS, Kozuka needs to hire Lori, and improve his dancing skills as well. Currently his skating is often frantic.

Violet Bliss · Feb 3, 2012

Jeremy Abbott's LP:

4CC 2011
TES 71.20
PCS 78.28
Difference 7.08 PCS

COC 2011
TES 69.67
PCS 80.50
Difference 10.83 PCS

COR 2011
TES 64.10
PCS 83.44
Difference 19.34 PCS

GPF 2011
TES 74.80
PCS 83.36
Difference 8.56 PCS

NATIONALS
TES 88.29
PCS 90.23
Difference 1.94 PCS

Violet Bliss · Feb 3, 2012

Mathman said:
I agree with SkateFiguring in wondering about the language "held up." Couldn't we simply say that Takahashi earned higher program component scores than element scores in several competitions?

Well, I think a skater may be held up by PCS, but not necessarily "gifted" as often implied. We may say some skaters are held up by TES as well. "Held up by PCS" indicates a lower regard for this part of skating/scoring while TES is viewed as legit. However, a low TES often indicates "messy" performance for those who think that PCS should reflect that.

Mathman · Feb 3, 2012

Abbott's scores are certainly no mystery. At CoC he fell on his quad and popped a 3A; at CoR he under-rotated and fell on his quad and doubled a loop; at the Grand Prix Final he fell twice on big point-getting jumps.

At nationals he was essentially clean and scored pretty close to the maximum for this program.

On the program component side, the international judges gave him the marks that they knew he was capable of achieving if he had skated better. At nationals, throw in ten points for nationals inflation and there you are.

Dragonlady · Feb 3, 2012

SkateFiguring said:
Kozuka lost LP by PCS in Worlds, 4CC, and Nationals. For such a first rate skater, something has to be done about that.

Kozuka's technical skills may be first rate, but his performance skills are not and that's why his PCS is not as high as Takahashi or Chan. Kozuka is a very introspective skater who is often looking a the ice as he skates, not up and into the audience. Even as children skaters are told not to look down at the ice. It denotes a lack of confidence and suggests that you have to pay attention to what you're doing because you're not sure of your abilities in a sport where "ease and sureness of movement" used to be one of the 7 bullets of the presentation score.

When Taka can "perform" his programs at the same level as Chan or Takahashi, his PCS will come up, but not until.

Blades of Passion · Feb 3, 2012

ImaginaryPogue said:
Now, of course, this doesn’t mean Patrick Chan isn’t overscored – you can be overscored in TES if the GOES are too generous (and I believe Chan is overscored here sometimes as well), but the numbers for the long programs in their four competitions indicate that Dai’s PCS are held up as compared to his TES more than Chan’s.

Just looking at the numbers doesn't mean anything, though. First of all, why does a skater's TES and PCS have to be roughly equal? Some skaters are simply much better artistically than they are technically, or vice versa.

More importantly, it's a matter of if those scores are deserved or not. Takahashi's TES are often so much lower than Chan's because of leaving out jump combinations and/or missing rotation, whereas Chan pretty much always maximizes all of his available jump windows (and, frankly, because Chan constantly gets way better GOE scores than he should). Takahashi's TES being lower doesn't mean it impacted the PCS and that he received undeserved scores in the latter category, though. If Takahashi planned a long program with nothing but double axels and easier triples for jumps, he would probably still deserve something like 90 in the PCS if he delivered it perfectly. That's because his ability as a skater, artist, and performer is so great. He is exciting regardless of high technical content. Looking at actual competitions, Takahashi leaving out technical content and making mistakes generally doesn't affect his performance very much. He deserves the high PCS. Patrick Chan, on the other hand, often does NOT maintain his performance level when he makes mistakes, nor do his programs have as much impact when flawed. That is part of the reason why so many feel he gets undeserved PCS - because when he does these performances where he makes a bunch of mistakes that break the flow and he skates without passion, he still gets massively high marks.

Given that Takahashi is MUCH better artistically and as a performer than Patrick Chan to begin with (you don't have to agree but I'm positing the idea), his overall PCS should generally be higher than Patrick's anyway. However, that never happens. When Takahashi skates better than Patrick - look at the recent Grand Prix Final Long Program - his PCS are still lower.

So, no, your theory is incorrect. Patrick Chan is held up in the PCS more than anyone else in the world of figure skating.

Violet Bliss · Feb 3, 2012

Interesting observations on Abbott:

Jeremy was 3rd in both SP and LP in COC but won the event. (Brezina was 3/3 in COR but finished 4th, his "favorite" position.)

Jeremy has his lowest TES and highest PCS at COR, and finished 3rd with 1/5 SP/LP positions. At GPF, he was 2/5, ending at 5th. He needs to bring his LP at 4CC and Worlds.

Boeing787 · Feb 3, 2012

Here we go again. PCS consists of five departments: SS (Patrick is better than Dai). CH (Lori beats Dai's). TR (Patrick wins by quantity and variety). IN and PE (these are the only two areas where Dai can beat Patrick).

Mathman · Feb 3, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
(and, frankly, because Chan constantly gets way better GOE scores than he should).

I used to think that, too. It just didn't seem reasonable that every element that Patrick undertook was one of the all-time great examples of that element.

But in reading the new GOE guidelines, the ISU has lowered the standards for satisfying each bullet. So by the new rules, Patrick does deserve these GOE scores.

Violet Bliss · Feb 3, 2012

Blades of Passion said:
Given that Takahashi is MUCH better artistically and as a performer than Patrick Chan to begin with (you don't have to agree but I'm positing the idea), his overall PCS should generally be higher than Patrick's anyway. However, that never happens. When Takahashi skates better than Patrick - look at the recent Grand Prix Final Long Program - his PCS are still lower.

So which Program Component is Artistry? Is PCS all about artistry and performance? Just because Takahashi gets the biggest cheers when he stands to caress his head, it does not make that his biggest element or component.

So, no, your theory is incorrect. Patrick Chan is held up in the PCS more than anyone else in the world of figure skating.

Leaving aside your personal and subjective judgement on "Artistry", your theory of "better artisty = higher PCS" does not hold up in any way, shape, and form as far as ISU judging is concerned.

Takahashi's SP vs. Chan's

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

jettasian

Match Penalty

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

let`s talk

Match Penalty

Bluebonnet

ImaginaryPogue

Violet Bliss

Violet Bliss

Bluebonnet

Mathman

Boeing787

Violet Bliss

Violet Bliss

Mathman

Dragonlady

Blades of Passion

Skating is Art, if you let it be

Violet Bliss

Boeing787

Mathman

Violet Bliss

Similar threads

Connect with us